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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 02:20 PM |
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Galaad said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
I like the witch hut option... I don't see the reason why you should listen to something you don't want to learn at all.
She teaches you for HER own interest, like the message says. If you're afraid to listen, no one forces you.
Sure she teaches what she want since you don't know what to expect when the hero enter the hut. Still, there is no "force" involved nor the sentence, that the witch caged up the hero to listen to her, since she welcome the hero in the first place. The rest of the sentence just suggests that she uses magic to teach her stuff since it doesn't take any time to learn the new skill. At least thats what it means to me. Anyway this ist just speculation and splitting hairs.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 17, 2017 02:57 PM |
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"As you enter the Witch Hut, you are tied up and gagged and forced to listen to the Witch' drivel. Afterwards, you find that you have learned a new skill!"
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 17, 2017 03:17 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:20, 17 Feb 2017.
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Exactly Maurice, thanks 
As well as a way to get a skill you can't normally have, it truly is a gamble, but then some start crying because of consequences. 
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 03:29 PM |
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I still like the feature, that a witch may teach something thats normally forbidden to heros like fire magic for rangers (while a druid may learn it?) Anyway it's just a comfort function for me to chose if you want to learn, else it's just reloading. HotA did ban Necromancy at witch huts? Necromancy is a skill I haven't got in witch huts for quite a long time now, I haven't found anything in patchnotes they changed it.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 17, 2017 03:35 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Anyway it's just a comfort function for me to chose if you want to learn, else it's just reloading.
Booo 
So you like to throw dices but only when they give you 6? That's not how it works. The joy you get when a you have the six exists because you also have the chance to get a one. It's basic principles of random in games really. You know what, next time, don't reload, and keep on playing, like a real man.
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tax_375
Hired Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 04:01 PM |
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I like the witch huts as they were originally intended. If you would like to be super safe then send the scout hero into the hut, if you like the skill send the main if don't then don't and its that simple.
And yes this is a great oportunity to learn forbidden skills with your heroes.
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 04:08 PM |
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Galaad said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
Anyway it's just a comfort function for me to chose if you want to learn, else it's just reloading.
Booo
So you like to throw dices but only when they give you 6? That's not how it works. The joy you get when a you have the six exists because you also have the chance to get a one. It's basic principles of random in games really. You know what, next time, don't reload, and keep on playing, like a real man.
I could also send a useless transport hero to the witch to see what she teaches... the result is quite the same and won't change anything  Thats why a comfort function would be nice. I choose the skills on my main heros anyways with or without reloading. Only difference is at max 1 turn less without the spy character.
tax_375 said:
I like the witch huts as they were originally intended. If you would like to be super safe then send the scout hero into the hut, if you like the skill send the main if don't then don't and its that simple.
And yes this is a great oportunity to learn forbidden skills with your heroes.
See above, thats the second option, if you play with other players. But it still won't change the result. Since you can so easiely avoid the consequences where is the reason? 
Nough said about this topic it was explained and talked about a lot in this thread anyway. And we agree, that we don't agree
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markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted February 17, 2017 04:18 PM |
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Maurice said:
"As you enter the Witch Hut, you are tied up and gagged and forced to listen to the Witch' drivel. Afterwards, you find that you have learned a new skill!"
meanwhile your 300 black dragons outside watch and giggle.
snows....
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 17, 2017 04:58 PM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
I could also send a useless transport hero to the witch to see what she teaches...
So then the hero is not useless, you chose to sacrifice some movement points in order to know. Not to mention, sending a secondary as guinea pig, you really have no heart!
Quote:
the result is quite the same and won't change anything
I can just as much directly enter a cheat in console and insta win the scenario, the result is the same. "winky"
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 06:09 PM |
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You can't compare a scenario or map with insta win? oO This is just a minor loss of movementpoints you may even add a penalty of 25% of your daily movementpoints to the witch as the same result but with an option to avoid the secondary skill. Anyway, as I said before it's just a comfort feature, nothing "game changing" at all. Dunno why this is a discussion at all. And as I stated and explained before, it's not a big deal to change it, since the consequences are so damn easy to avoid.
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skaniol
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 17, 2017 06:41 PM |
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I don't think that the rejection of the Witch would be gameplay changing, except for being a little less inconvenient, but to be honest, the interpretation of the text really sounds like the Witch is some selfish Baba, who tries to use you as her pupil, and we all know from Slavic fairy tales that entering huts like this could be a trap and you may end up being a hostage, so I wouldn't mind if it stays like it currently is. (oops, what a short sentence).
What about the Scholar, though? He seems like a nice dude, who is busy, but willing to help. I does look like he should be offering what he knows, so you can choose what you need, instead of forcing you his knowledge. Then, he disappears, so you can't really just send a scout to check it out. What do you think?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 17, 2017 06:45 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:48, 17 Feb 2017.
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skaniol said:
What do you think?
I think you (and some others) should try to play the game like it is intended to be played. Or make changes yourself, though I think most of what you want has already been made in Era but whatever.
Btw you said diplomacy was bad? LMAO
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 17, 2017 06:57 PM |
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bear in mind mate that you can say no thanks you old hag to the witch in Heroes 4, as well as her mate the Beastmaster who also gets his smelly hut,
so the question is what happened to change the dear old witch's heart and mind between Heroes 3 and 4, do you think maybe that big explosion with the jerks caused her to be a bit more laissez-faire to keep business booming as a Witch and all that lol
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2017 08:28 PM |
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Simplest answer for anything in HoMM3 -> no time to fix it... a simple boolean was too much coding.
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 18, 2017 12:03 AM |
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A dogmatic reading of a map object's description (which is not the only way to read that piece of text) is an all around terrible argument for it's mechanic and general design.
It's easy to guess that being forced to learn the skill is not part of the objects intended function, since the Scholar's text doesn't have that possible interpretation in the slightest, but still can't be skipped. It's just how they initially programmed this type of map objects to behave, and either didn't think or didn't have the time/means to change it back in the day.
Being able to reject it is a pretty obvious quality of life improvement that doesn't change the game in the slightest. NWC realized this by Heroes IV's development and already made the change themselves. Other HotA changes have been way more impactful than this either way (flagged external dwellings for example), so it's not beyond the scope of the mod or what has already been done to similar inconveniences.
Like I said, bad design shouldn't be held as a holy cow that prevents (I would say obvious in this case) improvements.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 18, 2017 01:49 AM |
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So many inconveniences. 
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Serp
Known Hero
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posted February 18, 2017 03:34 AM |
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I think there is no need to discuss about witch hut/scholar.
As hippox89 mentioned few days ago, this feature is already ready in HD mod, but for some reason baratorch does not activate it yet and does not answer to questions about it. Maybe he is waiting for Hota 1.5.
I'm quite sure, that if it will be released, it will be optionally (ingame setting or tweaks).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 18, 2017 11:25 AM |
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I have a strong memory of witch huts when I was a kid, for me it was always a tough decision, because I was willing to go through even if the witch gave me an unwanted skill. How many games I finished with non-optimal builds and how much variety it gave my games, the unexpected always pleased me in h3 and I would certainly not call it bad design. Because it is not gamebreaking. H7 developers had the same philosophy than Wind Falcon, trying to "correct the flaws" of previous games, we can see the successful result. Ok they added a bunch of nonsense too but it's a general mindset that I consider to be harming the genre.
If the game becomes too convenient it will not be the same game, as in only good skills and no risk at anytime, or maybe it's the "edition for babies".
If you are controlling 100% everything in the game, some of its magic will be gone, IMHO
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted February 18, 2017 12:07 PM |
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In reality most people will just reload if possible, if they get a bad skill. So really it just wastes time, to visit a witch hut or scholar that teaches something you don't want.
Maybe it would be best for HD mod to enable optional witch huts and scholars as a tweak, that can be turned on or off at will.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2017 12:14 PM |
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Galaad said:
I have a strong memory of witch huts when I was a kid, for me it was always a tough decision, because I was willing to go through even if the witch gave me an unwanted skill. How many games I finished with non-optimal builds and how much variety it gave my games, the unexpected always pleased me in h3 and I would certainly not call it bad design. Because it is not gamebreaking. H7 developers had the same philosophy than Wind Falcon, trying to "correct the flaws" of previous games, we can see the successful result. Ok they added a bunch of nonsense too but it's a general mindset that I consider to be harming the genre.
If the game becomes too convenient it will not be the same game, as in only good skills and no risk at anytime, or maybe it's the "edition for babies".
If you are controlling 100% everything in the game, some of its magic will be gone, IMHO
Except (almost) no-one is actually talking about totally customisable skill-sets, just being able to reject the skills offered at Witch Huts.
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