Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 260 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 210 240 ... 249 250 251 252 253 ... 260 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 23, 2017 03:39 PM
Edited by Galaad at 15:47, 23 Jun 2017.

verynice said:
WoG removing so many gameplay and technical limitations is why it is such a mess of inconsistent quality and style.


Please play the most popular fan-made maps for Wog before saying things that are so wrong, besides, Wog doesn't remove anything, it just gives tons of options which ADD to the game (like Commanders, duh) that you can safely disable fitting your preferences. There is even a special mod called SafeSoD for SoD purists so they benefit of all GUI enhancements without altering core gameplay.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verynice
verynice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 23, 2017 04:10 PM

Galaad said:

Please play the most popular fan-made maps for Wog before saying things that are so wrong, besides, Wog doesn't remove anything, it just gives tons of options which ADD to the game (like Commanders, duh)

That's why I said removing limitations.
Less limitations = More options

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 23, 2017 05:13 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 17:17, 23 Jun 2017.

verynice said:
WoG giving map makers a lot of control is its biggest weakness: Good content comes from inventing solutions under difficult constraints. WoG removing so many gameplay and technical limitations is why it is such a mess of inconsistent quality and style.
Well, you are simply WRONG. I guess you never tried some of the good WoG maps like The Dragon Slauther or Alexander, the great or The Empire of the World IV. The thing is: if you don't know what you are doing the RMG will do a better job then you but if you are a talented mapmaker like Salamandre or Woodmellon, removing the limitations allows you to do wonders.

P.S. I see Galaad already stated the obvious.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verynice
verynice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 23, 2017 06:15 PM

bloodsucker said:
Well, you are simply WRONG. I guess you never tried some of the good WoG maps like The Dragon Slauther or Alexander, the great or The Empire of the World IV.

Those map exemplifies exactly the unnecessary amount of complexity WoG excels at. Maps so overstuffed with objects and thematic clutter that you end up with XXL maps with three decorations per tile and ridiculous monster stacks. It's a mess.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 24, 2017 12:01 AM

i propose this discussion be moved here, as this is all off-topic.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 24, 2017 09:13 AM

verynice said:

WoG giving map makers a lot of control is its biggest weakness: Good content comes from inventing solutions under difficult constraints. WoG removing so many gameplay and technical limitations is why it is such a mess of inconsistent quality and style.


Superficial statement. First, to be able to create a successful wog mod, you have to learn to code, and that IS a very big constraint, considering that in 15 years the number of modders is still under 20 or so. Then erm is not a free pass to do whatever pass through your mind, it still asks for a lot of creative solution to bypass technical limitation, but on another level this time. The standard wog offers a lot of options which remove or add things, but something you CAN fully control by checking or uncheking is never a weakness, is it? A weakness is not being able to solve a vanilla bug, like we have some in Hota -AI froze and big armies mess for example.  

I agree with you that wog is a easier choice for a category of mapmakers, those who are lazy and not interested to design creative landscapes. They now just have to pick through much more objects so it seems to them this looks nice. But also when you say:

verynice said:
Maps so overstuffed with objects and thematic clutter that you end up with XXL maps with three decorations per tile


it is quite ironic, because yet today, the most single tile stuffed maps are still the SoD maps Tew 1, 2, Vengeance is mine, To Kill for Power and some others, where tiles contain up to 10 decorations (I made a thread about years ago), maps -10 years old- which are widely considered as best of genre and are still discussed today -check maps forum. I would say, is not important how technically a map is made, but if the result is up to what it claims to propose, this is what matters.

I am not going to turn into an useless debate Hota vs WoG because myself I consider Hota a gem and a genius add on, aesthetically much ahead wog. However I never played it (out of usual testing for updates) because after 15 years of playing vanilla again and again, my personal preferences go towards more individual control of the plot and mapmaking technical process. Being able to do so is always better than not being able to.
____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verynice
verynice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 24, 2017 10:43 AM
Edited by verynice at 10:45, 24 Jun 2017.

Salamandre said:

Superficial statement. First, to be able to create a successful wog mod, you have to learn to code, and that IS a very big constraint, considering that in 15 years the number of modders is still under 20 or so. Then erm is not a free pass to do whatever pass through your mind, it still asks for a lot of creative solution to bypass technical limitation, but on another level this time.

I will agree in the sense that the people who are good at coding are rarely equally good at or interested in creating game content.
Quote:

The standard wog offers a lot of options which remove or add things, but something you CAN fully control by checking or uncheking is never a weakness, is it? A weakness is not being able to solve a vanilla bug, like we have some in Hota -AI froze and big armies mess for example.

Why is a feature able to be checked and unchecked in the first place? Is it because the author knew the it was mediocre and only a small subset of the playerbase would enjoy it? Is it because it conflicts with other features?
It is a weakness because it means that the systems are not optimally designed: You can't make the best solutions if the context is completely up to the whim of the player.

Salamandre said:

it is quite ironic, because yet today, the most single tile stuffed maps are still the SoD maps Tew 1, 2, Vengeance is mine, To Kill for Power and some others, where tiles contain up to 10 decorations (I made a thread about years ago), maps -10 years old- which are widely considered as best of genre and are still discussed today -check maps forum. I would say, is not important how technically a map is made, but if the result is up to what it claims to propose, this is what matters.


It is not just WoG itself, but how it represents the drift towards more complexity, which happens within many game communities. It is inherently easier to add new content than it is to improve what is already there.

Even in Warcraft 3, which has a very powerful map editor and code interface, the most popular map was DotA, which for all the design changes was never significantly different from the original game. It uses the same combat mechanics, interface and assets(with a few exceptions) as the original game. It being so constrained is exactly why the solution ended up being so original and compelling and it is a huge part of the reason why the genre is now one of the most popular in the world. DotA took the best parts of the original game and rearranged them into something even greater.

Warcraft also had many maps which radically changed the game by adding tons of new content and changes to the fundamental rules of the game. While many were competently made, they are now all but forgotten.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
avatar
avatar


Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2017 11:22 AM

WoG creators made one big mistake (from today's view). They should have been disable 99% WoG options at start. If player would enable one option by another and check if he likes it or not, 'it's a mess thing' didn't occur.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 24, 2017 02:32 PM

verynice said:
I will agree in the sense that the people who are good at coding are rarely equally good at or interested in creating game content.


And I was absolutely not saying that, wondering also by what brilliant deduction you came to such conclusion? Game content means everything which improves game-play. Could be graphics, interface or bug fixing. What is the connection with the individual level of coding?

verynice said:

Why is a feature able to be checked and unchecked in the first place? Is it because the author knew the it was mediocre and only a small subset of the playerbase would enjoy it? Is it because it conflicts with other features?
It is a weakness because it means that the systems are not optimally designed: You can't make the best solutions if the context is completely up to the whim of the player.


Well, you decided it is THIS way therefore all your further conclusions are biased and flawed. HD mod has a lot of check/uncheck (0/1) options, does it mean for you is not optimally designed?

avatar said:
WoG creators made one big mistake (from today's view). They should have been disable 99% WoG options at start. If player would enable one option by another and check if he likes it or not, 'it's a mess thing' didn't occur.


And this is what they did. There is an option at start: disable/enable all features.
____________
All my Era II mods

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 24, 2017 02:54 PM

Honestly, talking ill of wog nowadays from a player perspective is just ignorant, it's the SAME as SoD with a bunch of stuff you can add if you want to. If you hate ALL wog features you can disable ALL and just profit from the various enhancements such as army management, upgrade all, faster animations, new battle terrains and the likes that don't affect gameplay. If you don't like new objects or recolored creatures you can disable them. It's not 3.58f days anymore.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
verynice
verynice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 24, 2017 04:38 PM

Salamandre said:
Game content means everything which improves game-play. Could be graphics, interface or bug fixing. What is the connection with the individual level of coding?


Game content usually refers to content that the player can see and interact with while playing and often in the sense that it extends the length of a game or it enables to player to do something new.
If you follow any other game you will see that a "content update" never refers to bug fixes, interface changes or visual changes.

Salamandre said:

HD mod has a lot of check/uncheck (0/1) options, does it mean for you is not optimally designed?


The HD mod does not have optional content additions.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 24, 2017 06:32 PM

verynice said:
The HD mod does not have optional content additions.
Can some mod shut this guy, please? Now I believe he is just trolling.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xfing
Xfing


Hired Hero
posted June 24, 2017 06:46 PM

Well I think we can agree that HotA at least has the benefit of simplicity - you don't need to spend ticking options from a long list before you start every map. The game has you move within the same constraints as SoD and before.

But it's also so much more: it fixes issues left unaddressed by SoD, introduces bigger map sizes, adds only a relatively small amount of map objects, all of them being logical extensions and continuations of the existing ones, and adds only very few new units, but every single one designed with care so painstaking that it gives the entire product and unmatched feeling of legitimacy. Not to mention it promises the return of the Forge sometime down the line, in a form not requiring the use of complicated modding platforms or swapping out any existing towns. For a simple person interested only in playing the game, it's pretty much all they would ever need. WoG is a fancy developer's mod, but HotA feels like a legitimate expansion.



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 24, 2017 07:50 PM

Xfing said:
WoG is a fancy developer's mod


I don't understand why people think you need to be developer to play wog, I can't code and adore wog as a player. Also you don't need to tick and untick everytime, you can just save you settings.

Quote:
HotA feels like a legitimate expansion.


Absolutely.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted June 24, 2017 08:12 PM

the thing about wog , that people forget is that is heroes 3.5, with emphasis on the .5 due to the fact its a fan bassed ADDON EXPENSION with alot of unique options to optimate the playing expearince, as in the mapmaker expeariance, that is in the end made for THE PLAYING EXPEARINCE.
the prime objective was to break as much limitions to the game, that is keeping from prime playing expearince, IN THEY'RE OWN MINDSET. It is okay for you to dislike wog, but its wrong for you to enforce you opinion, much like what i said about hoat, few pages ago.

____________
types in obscure english

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted June 24, 2017 10:13 PM

antipaladin said:
It is okay for you to dislike wog, but ...

It's ok for you to dislike fish, but is not ok to kill all the fishes in the sea cause you don't like to eat them.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PGarxot
PGarxot

Tavern Dweller
posted June 26, 2017 03:29 PM
Edited by PGarxot at 15:31, 26 Jun 2017.

PGarxot said:
Hey!!

Anybody knows why the handicap doesn`t work at multiplayer tcp/ip with simul turns?? it seems working fine at first turn but when both players pass the turn, the handicap dissapears

This doesn't happen at hot seat game.



Congratulations for this amazing project!!



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted June 26, 2017 04:13 PM

It is SoD bug, not something directly relating to simultaneous turns. Will be fixed in 1.5.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PGarxot
PGarxot

Tavern Dweller
posted June 26, 2017 05:06 PM

Sav said:
It is SoD bug, not something directly relating to simultaneous turns. Will be fixed in 1.5.


Thanks for your quick answer. And its scheduled a date for the new 1.5 version??

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Greedfire
Greedfire


Hired Hero
posted June 27, 2017 01:33 AM

PGarxot said:

Thanks for your quick answer. And its scheduled a date for the new 1.5 version??


Yep. Current life This year probably

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This Popular Thread is 260 pages long: 1 30 60 90 120 150 180 210 240 ... 249 250 251 252 253 ... 260 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1581 seconds