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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Super Thread is 548 pages long: 1 ... 26 27 28 29 30 ... 70 140 210 280 350 420 490 548 · «PREV / NEXT»
heroes_fanboy
heroes_fanboy


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2014 04:06 PM

Hippox89 said:


...

@heroes_fanboy

Yes, that town in itself looks pretty good so far in the process, I agree. Maybe the small orc badge give a feel too much like that of 40K, though?


I think this orc badge was in the original NWC concepts. Still, I'm sure this town will look excellent in its final version. You can see the evolution of Cove in this article (pages 4-6, images on the right). If Forge evolves in a similar way, this would be just awesome.  

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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted January 16, 2014 04:16 PM

I really like the new look of the orcs. Also, with that in mind, you should remake the "Boar" unit. that orc now riding the poor swine to combat looks out of place now.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted January 16, 2014 04:20 PM
Edited by Hobbit at 16:23, 16 Jan 2014.

hippox89 said:
I had some issues with understanding your first post, references and such (not your fault). So I cannot comment much on it.

In short - HoMM series come directly from games which looked like this:





Elements of this style are still present in HoMM3. Just look at Beholders, Imps' big noses, Armageddon's icon (nuclear bomb ftw) or many artifacts. It's not serious fantasy, like HoMM5-6, LotR, Elder Scrolls etc. - people who were creating HoMM were just having fun. So if they wanted to make an armor with big red eyes, they just did.



hippox89 said:
You can explain landmines with either magic or alchemy or a mix thereof.

You can explain anything with magic. The point is there are many elements of more technological stuff in HoMM3 that shouldn't be in a game that many consider as high fantasy. Landmines are the most obvious example, but e.g. Necropolis' Blacksmith, Magogs' dwelling or Catapults which shoot bombs are also really strange when everything else is more medieval. But here comes another point: HoMM isn't really a "medieval game".

I can talk about it for hours, but that would be an offtop. Maybe I should make an article about all that stuff or something.

Anyhow, I think the biggest issue of Forge is that it's considered as "technology town", while all other towns are about certain heroes (Castle - Knight's town, Tower - Wizard's town etc.), similar to Heroes 1-2 style. Many modders don't remember about this anymore though. Still, I'm pretty sure that even though some of HotA Forge's elements aren't really well thought (like Terminator Units...), the final product will feel really great.

heroes_fanboy said:
You can see the evolution of Cove in this article (pages 4-6, images on the right).

Awesome! Thanks for the link!
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 16, 2014 04:30 PM

Auto Interview with Greg Fulton
It is a letter (As a FAQ) written by Greg Fulton, designer HoMM and NWC member, right afret decision about remove Forge from AB expansion. No matter parts (about present form of AB expansion, forum 3DO and Astral Wizards site) was cutted off. This letter in ogiginal form was on Astral Wizads site, but unfortunalety its not availble from long time.


Q - Question
GF - Greg Fulton


Q: WAS THE FORGE A BAD IDEA?

GF: We will never know.


Q: WILL THE FORGE RETURN?

GF: Perhaps, but not in its current form.


Q: IS THE TITLE 'ARMAGEDDON'S BLADE' CHANGING?

GF: No, but the story line is.


Q: HOW FAR ALONG WAS THE FORGE TOWN?

GF: A first draft of the town screen was finished and awaiting revision. We also had a first draft of each creature and its upgrade and were proceeding with revisions. All but one map for the campaign was finished.


Q: WHAT WAS THE STORY LINE?

GF: Armageddon's Blade followed a story line set up in the forthcoming Might and Magic 7. In the M&M7 story, Archibald's necromantic Advisors build a machine capable of creating high weaponry. In the Armageddon's Blade campaign, these Advisors build Forge towns and set out to destroy Erathia. Catherine's only hope to stop these hi-tech horrors is to obtain the fabled 'Armageddon's Blade'. In the end, Catherine finds Armageddon's Blade and destroys all remnants of the Forge towns, concluding the Might and Magic 7 story line.


Q: WHY DID YOU PULL THE FORGE?

GF: Reason One: As much as I thought the actions of many fans showed a lack of vision and an inherent distrust for a company who have given them hundreds of hours of quality gameplay, I still didn't want to fight our fans. Reason Two: There wasn't enough pro-Forge activity.


Q: DO YOU THINK 50% OF THE HEROES FANS WERE AGAINST THE FORGE?

GF: No. Total, the number of emails we received asking to remove the Forge were less than 100. I doubt 3DO received much more. As a series, Heroes has sold over 750,000 copies world wide. I would be surprised if more than 5% of the audience would have 'boycotted' the product. However, I still felt 5% was too high.


Q: DID THE NETHER GOD'S POLL AFFECT YOUR DECISION?

GF: No. The Nether God's poll was bogus. I voted for all three options three separate times with a dynamic IP.


Q: WE DON'T LIKE THE ELEMENTAL TOWN.

GF: "You'll get the elemental town, and you'll like it."


Q: DOES SCIENCE FICTION BELONG IN HEROES?

GF: Yes. Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


Q: DO SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY MIX?

GF: In the Might and Magic universe they do.

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vastaire
vastaire


Adventuring Hero
posted January 16, 2014 04:41 PM
Edited by vastaire at 16:41, 16 Jan 2014.

I am not a fan of the Forge Town either.

Cathedral is the only way to go

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 16, 2014 04:46 PM

I am so much for Forge !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HoTA's decision anyway ;-)

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heroes_fanboy
heroes_fanboy


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2014 04:57 PM

Galaad said:
I am so much for Forge !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HoTA's decision anyway ;-)


I'm sure they've already decided. Let's just wait till don_komandorr comes back, and they should resume the Forge development.

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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted January 16, 2014 05:28 PM
Edited by blob2 at 17:33, 16 Jan 2014.

hippox89 said:
Adding Forge into Heroes 3 is mixing two conflicting themes, though, imho. Sure, you might love the idea of Forge, but you have to admit that you cannot add Forge without changing the Heroes 3 feel radically. You can argue about lore and story, too, but I still don't feel any warmer to Forge because of that.


Yes, exactly my point of view

@Hobbit

And you also didn't understand my posts. I know that Forge is based on the universe as a whole (which is Sci-fi at it's core). I didn't need Galaad's post to know that. I'm not knowledgeable about the universe that much, but at least I know some facts. I know that the fantasy world in Heroes is a world of civilizations that went barbaric. I know that Kreegans are from space, and that there are heroes who are "Space Rangers" in disguise etc. But I just don't like those ideas. When I first read about it (I started my adventure with the franchise with H3) I was disappointed with NWC designers, because it slightly ruined my view of the game. But I can understand their choices, they've wanted to broader their options by mixing sci-fi and fantasy. It was not the most original idea, but definitely gave them more options to create Might and Magic lore...

And that's why I said that "Forge does not exist" in my Heroes III universe. Not physically, but mentally I don't like this element of the lore, and it was not mentioned anywhere in Heroes III (If I remember correctly). The game concentrates on it's own plotline, without adding any sci-fi elements like Kreegans using satellites to raze Erathia and so on. And that's what I like about Heroes III. Putting aside it's legacy, it's an example of a hard fantasy RTS game.

All in all it depends on HotA team, and they've probably made their decision already (it was mentioned a couple of times)...

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted January 16, 2014 05:58 PM
Edited by Hobbit at 18:27, 16 Jan 2014.

blob2 said:
And you also didn't understand my posts. I know that Forge is based on the universe as a whole (which is Sci-fi at it's core).

I'm afraid you still don't get my point. I'm not talking about story because I know that's not interesting for many fans and that it won't really bother most people. I'm talking about games themselves - visuals, designs etc.

blob2 said:
Putting aside it's legacy, it's an example of a hard fantasy RTS game.

If you only read what I posted, you'd know that's not true at all (or at least tried to discuss it )... It's not "hard fantasy" game, it's you who doesn't notice the fact that's it's very distant from traditional fantasy. It's "Let's be creative" kind of fantasy, very oldschool one. Pure D&D style, maybe a bit less crazy this time, but still - anything goes as long as there's something about magic.



blob2 said:
And that's why I said that "Forge does not exist" in my Heroes III universe.

There's no such thing as your Heroes III universe.
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MrKafu
MrKafu


Adventuring Hero
At!as1n7h3Cl0u
posted January 16, 2014 06:17 PM

Thank you everyone!
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted January 16, 2014 06:43 PM

I've got to agree with nik about making a subforum for HotA or something - this thread is a mess now, the discussion above about what feels Heroes 3 is great but it would be better in another thread I think
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heroes_fanboy
heroes_fanboy


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2014 06:44 PM

Storm-Giant said:
I've got to agree with nik about making a subforum for HotA or something...


Yes, we terribly need a subforum.

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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted January 16, 2014 06:47 PM
Edited by blob2 at 18:57, 16 Jan 2014.

Hobbit said:
If you only read what I posted, you'd know that's not true at all (or at least tried to discuss it )... It's not "hard fantasy" game, it's you who doesn't notice the fact that's it's very distant from traditional fantasy. It's "Let's be creative" kind of fantasy, very oldschool one. Pure D&D style, maybe a bit less crazy this time, but still - anything goes as long as there's something about magic.


Excuse me but what?

In HIII Elves are elves, goblins are goblins, dragons are dragons. Every creature is based on a popular depiction of a fantastic creature. I won't say the only right one, because there are many popular depictions of various fantastic races (which many treat as canon) like Tolkiens elves etc. Of course units in HIII have their own visual style (design choices) like in most games/books, but I don't see any "distant" visual style that you are talking about...

I suppose you're trying to convice me that people in NWC were creating those units bearing in mind that some of them have a "cosmic" origin. It might be (or even is) true, but like I said, they made it so, that everything looks like your standard fantasy game. I don't see any resemblance to cosmic mutants or other things...

Evil eyes are based on Beholders, the only difference being that they don't fly in air, and that's the only difference from the canon depictions of a Beholder made by and popularized by D&D.

Hobbit said:
There's no such thing as your Heroes III universe.


Oh believe me, there is

PS: Sorry for messing this thread guys, but once a discussion about tastes starts, it keeps on going for a while. And we are talking on the subject, HotA guys will see how some fans feel about the Forge faction. Maybe they'll change their mind

Putting that aside, Hobbit, say what you want, I won't accept your point of view on the matter. I have my own view of Heroes III, I dislike the Forge concept, and trying to convince me that Heroes III is more sci-fi then it actually is won't work... even it is supported by NWC itself. People see what they like to see, and this is how it looks in my case...

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted January 16, 2014 06:57 PM

blob2 said:
PS: Sorry for messing this thread guys, but once a discussion about tastes starts, it keeps on going for a while. And we are talking on the subject, HotA guys will see how fans feel about the Forge faction. Maybe they'll change their mind

I know how discussions work, no need for apologies here - I'm just saying we need more than one thread, just that
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heroes_fanboy
heroes_fanboy


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2014 07:03 PM

blob2 said:


...

PS: Sorry for messing this thread guys, but once a discussion about tastes starts, it keeps on going for a while. And we are talking on the subject, HotA guys will see how fans feel about the Forge faction. Maybe they'll change their mind

...



You may find exactly the same discussion about Forge in HotA on official Russian forums (much older than this thread). And after reading some threads there, I'm almost sure that the developers won't change their mind.

At first I thought that Forge is a strange idea, but when I heard about how the M&M world is connected with sci-fi I changed my mind. Now, I'm totally for introducing Forge into HoMM 3 as it could add a nice twist into the storyline.


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Trith
Trith


Adventuring Hero
Not a Hero... Just a... Nobody
posted January 16, 2014 07:06 PM
Edited by Trith at 19:10, 16 Jan 2014.

Quote:
In HIII Elves are elves, goblins are goblins, dragons are dragons

and demons are aliens

Quote:
I won't say the only right one, because there are many popular depictions of various fantastic races (which many treat as canon) like Tolkiens elves etc

But people often forget that there are other deciptions of such creatures. I even saw at least one argument about "elves and dwarves should not be in one town, because Tolkien".
If we would go with most fashionable deciption of certain fantasy creatures, vampires in Heroes should be immune to light magic damage and be able to blind nearby enemies each time they are put under light magic spell.

Quote:
I dislike the Forge concept, and trying to convince me that Heroes III is more sci-fi then it actually is won't work... even it is supported by NWC itself.

I could say that I don't like concept of dragon gods introduced by Ubisoft. I can deny over half of lore and universe only because I'd prefer to see said dragon gods as dinosaur gods, only because I think dragons are too cliche. But isn't that ridiculous and also living in denial, because you refuse to accept things as they actually are?

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heroes_fanboy
heroes_fanboy


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2014 07:11 PM
Edited by heroes_fanboy at 19:16, 16 Jan 2014.

And in this new HotA subforum we would need at least such threads as: Bugs, Balance, New ideas, Forge Town in HotA.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted January 16, 2014 07:19 PM
Edited by Macron1 at 19:21, 16 Jan 2014.

blob2 said:
I have my own view of Heroes III, I dislike the Forge concept, and trying to convince me that Heroes III is more sci-fi then it actually is won't work... even it is supported by NWC itself. People see what they like to see, and this is how it looks in my case...


So you must look to VCMI, where you can easily turn off Forge or any town else. HOTA is a closed project, so you will not have option to turn of Forge or their vision of "balance", or anything like this.

PS There is a lot of Forges now, so I like it ideas, but think that HOTA could focus on Cathedral, then repeat Forge another time.

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Hobbit
Hobbit


Supreme Hero
posted January 16, 2014 07:48 PM

Storm-Giant said:
I've got to agree with nik about making a subforum for HotA or something

Good idea, though maybe we should wait with that.

blob2 said:
In HIII Elves are elves, goblins are goblins, dragons are dragons.

That doesn't mean that H3 has to be taken serious like it's a "hard fantasy game". In fact it really shouldn't be, because this kind of creative style of graphics is strong side of HoMM series (that's one of the reasons H5-6 weren't that good). I think HotA Crew does know that - some good examples are Temple of the Sea (making structure like that so that some Serpents and Hydras can inhabit it is a little bit odd, don't you think?) or Crown of the Five Seas (one of the strangest artifacts ever, but whatever, it's not like there are no funny artifacts in H3).

The point is: what you consider as "hard fantasy" and "HoMM3 fantasy" are completely different genres. There are some similarities, but again - there are many similarities between that and e.g. Bakshi's Wizards (great movie BTW, you should watch it).

blob2 said:
I suppose you're trying to convice me that people in NWC were creating those units bearing in mind that some of them have a "cosmic" origin.

No. I'm saying that they have COMIC origin. Have you played Heroes 1?

Friend of mine who didn't play Heroes 3 at all until I showed it to her (she's a big fan of fantasy) said at first that many units, heroes, buildings etc. look really original and even funny. When I thought about it, I actually did agree with her. It was surprising for me, but there is something in NWC's work that was not serious at all, but still awesome. I think it's about this D&D origin etc.

blob2 said:
Evil eyes are based on Beholders, the only difference being that they don't fly in air, and that's the only difference from the canon depictions of a Beholder made by and popularized by D&D.

Yeah, and D&D (Spelljammer, to be precise) also has Giant Space Hamsters. Let me also remind you that Boo from Baldur's Gate was believed by Minsc to be a Miniature Giant Space Hamster.

Also, don't tell me that this is part of "standard fantasy" for you:



blob2 said:
Oh believe me, there is

It's not "your Heroes III universe", it's just "your universe". There's only one universe of Heroes III games.

blob2 said:
Putting that aside, Hobbit, say what you want, I won't accept your point of view on the matter. I have my own view of Heroes III, I dislike the Forge concept, and trying to convince me that Heroes III is more sci-fi then it actually is won't work... even it is supported by NWC itself. People see what they like to see, and this is how it looks in my case...

I'm fine with that. The problem begins when you're trying to justify that while, in fact, it's 100% subjective stuff. Objectively speaking there are too many sci-fi things in Heroes 3 already to say that there can't be more of them.

Your opinion is the same as opinion of someone who doesn't like Cove. You can't really do anything about that.

I'm also not a fan of Forge concept itself - that's why I'm trying to improve it (although not for HotA... for now ). It can be better and it can fit HoMM3 world - you just have to give it a chance and rework the concept.
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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 16, 2014 07:56 PM
Edited by nik312 at 19:58, 16 Jan 2014.

Quote:
Pirates are unaffected by forgetfulness spell (Edit: only sometimes, strange...), they are not immune but they can shoot nevertheless with the spell applied. This may be an issue for their upgrades as well, I do not know this. This should be looked into for the sorceress and it's unupgraded version as well.


Could you pls provide some details on that to make sure that it was really a bug, not some natural game mechanics. Maybe water lvl was not adv. and dmg was just halved, or some resist worked, or anything.

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