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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 306 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 ... 291 292 293 294 295 ... 306 · «PREV / NEXT»
hellburn
hellburn


Famous Hero
The efreet
posted March 18, 2018 02:15 PM

Whoa there.
There was a lot of talking about fixing the game balance before, and now when HotA Crew are taking a step in chosen direction a lot of people are bashing them for it? That's not right.
Changing the mechanic of useless skills is good but changing mechanic of very situational and random skill isn't? There's no logic in that kind of behaviour.

I personally have mixed feelings about rework of Resistance but I trust HotA Crew, that in the grand scheme everything will turn for the better.


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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 18, 2018 02:18 PM

nik312 said:
Also, it kinda seems to me that noone really read the explanations, since noone seemed to even notice this:
Quote:
In order to allow the players to compare the two mechanics and appreciate the advantages of the new one, we introduced the test version option in the HotA 1.5.3 launcher. With it enabled, the game will employ the old Resistance mechanic.



I did see that but I also read the next sentence:

Quote:
The Crew, however, is not planning on reverting the change; the old mechanic will be completely abolished by the next major release.


I don't even care about particularly Resistance so much btw, it's just how you guys changed your approach on things.
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AncientDruids
AncientDruids


Known Hero
BEware THe DRuids
posted March 18, 2018 02:20 PM

Popcioslav said:
I honestly would've said I'd rather stay on the previous two patches, but...
Docent_Picolan said:

[+] A new highlands spruce tree has been added



Best patch, 10/10


It really is a nice tree, though.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 18, 2018 02:27 PM

@Hourglass
You are right to say that that is not feedback, because it is NOT. But I still think it is viable way of expressing.

I'm sure that Hota crew has it reasons, and I know that they do things carefully (their work is high quality), but not everything is goimg to be liked by everyone (which is fine).

I consider old resistance the essential part of H3, many probably don't and that is ok. In this regard, ERA is way better  - you can customize your experience. The only drawback there is lack of Cove, but I can live with that

As this is getting off topic, I'm signing off

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 18, 2018 02:30 PM

revolut1oN said:
It is indeed aiming for more balanced competitive gameplay and well, at least for me, it does indeed fulfill that goal. Lately meta game became implosion/armageddon bash and armies were basically on the second plan all the time.


As I see it, the game - as NWC imagined it - went agony mode as soon as the first closed template was fan created. From there indeed, skills as resistance, eagle eye, scouting, first aid and ballistic became 100% useless, "rules" banned spells and specific actions (dim door, hit and run, castle siege), and all strategy went into brute force expressed by natural fight skills only. The skirmish for scare resources, artifacts and towns ended because now you had time to plan and realize that plan, while before you had to counter another intelligence whose goal was to constantly, from the first day, prohibit you from achieving your plan. Now you can always build that mage guild - or get its alike from generous relics areas - while before you had to choose and take a risk: army or magic.

So from now, is obvious that all upcoming modding will go into that direction, remove any randomness and luck based features from the game then transform it in sort of chess where the best always win. That's fine if supported by a majority, but let's not lie: this is NOT what NWC would have done, ever.

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 02:43 PM
Edited by nik312 at 15:02, 18 Mar 2018.

nik312 said:
Quote:
Wow, this escalated quickly.


Yeah, that's one way of putting it...

It really seems to me that people take this change for a lot more than it is. This is not a sign of "eliminating any random factor from the game", this is not a sign of "totally destroying all the other skills and magic" - Resistance is a unique example of a skill so fundamentally harmful for the game that it needs to change completely.

It is not just the  "random factor" that is bad in itself (although there is quite enough of randomness in heroes already) - it is the power of that random. The difference between successful proc and a miss is quite often the whole game. It's almost impossible to recover after a lucky 10% proc against your implosion or blindness. That also means, that the correct strategy involved in utilizing this in single-player is A TON of reloads until you get that one lucky proc.

That is why the old resistance had to go.
And about why we consider the new version better than all other ones (and we have truly reviewed ALL of them) - there is a detailed enough explanation in the post.

Also, it kinda seems to me that noone really read the explanations, since noone seemed to even notice this:
Quote:
In order to allow the players to compare the two mechanics and appreciate the advantages of the new one, we introduced the test version option in the HotA 1.5.3 launcher. With it enabled, the game will employ the old Resistance mechanic.



Adding to the above:

As for the sentiment of "how are we supposed to counter mass slow now??"... I don't even... Is that a bad joke? Really sounds half like a joke and half like a mockery of the situation. You are considering how to counter mass slow and your answer is "I think I'll invest a full skill slot to have a 20% chance that it will whiff on exactly the right stack at the right time"? Not "I think I'll just cast haste/antimagic, and have 2 turns in a row with the advantage of first cast in the next round"? That's exactly why no decent player ever starts a massive battle with casting mass-slow and going all-in on it. He understands that he may just be overwhelmed in the course of 2 rounds. Or sometimes the best answer to mass-slow is just casting a good combat spell - like shield, prayer or implosion and make use of the fact that your opponent wasted a turn without getting a quality advantage.
Also, Cloak of Silence exists for a reason.

There are obviously problems with mass-slow, but those mostly come from the fact that it is so OP against the map, not against actual players. And resistance is definitely not a solution for that.

Berserk would be a slightly more legitimate concern but we are monitoring situation on that front. At the very least there is a whole artifact to prevent exactly that problem.

Gold dragon stuff I won't even go into. Want to ressurect your dragons? Get a black orb. Want your army protected from implo? Get opponent's SP to 1 with new resistance, should help.

Again, the only reason resistance was okay as a skill before is because whole magic system was not so important thanks to red orb

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 02:55 PM
Edited by nik312 at 15:06, 18 Mar 2018.

Quote:
So from now, is obvious that all upcoming modding will go into that direction, remove any randomness and luck based features from the game then transform it in sort of chess where the best always win.


Why do I even post if nobody bothers to read...

"Any randomness", sure. Because the resistance was "any randomness", not the absolute example of how NOT to implement random features.

Quote:
I think they ended up developing the mod in completely another direction at some point due to lack of 3d modelling manpower and "hardware failures that consumed lots of hard work for new towns" while having stable amount of programming manpower.


That's just plain wrong. The plans to rework certain spells and skills in near-priority were always clearly stated and plans do not take turns based on team composition.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 18, 2018 03:05 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 15:12, 18 Mar 2018.

nik312 said:

Why do I even post if nobody bothers to read...

"Any randomness", sure. Because the resistance was "any randomness", not the absolute example of how NOT to implement random reatures.


Well, actually I was more commenting your initial post in "whishes thread" where you claimed no wishes contradicting NWC classical vision will be considered. Again, I have no problems with how other people want to play the game, stripping it of core elements if they like. But it contradicts with the opening statement, you guys were the fanatic zealots of the vanilla patterns and concepts, this is what made your force. Now, if you go the custom and experimental way (opponent resistance downgrade my ability to resurrect hitpoints?), I bet your baby will become as controversial as WoG, while it wasn't before. Worth thinking imo.

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Javiduc
Javiduc


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 03:35 PM
Edited by Javiduc at 15:38, 18 Mar 2018.

I am happy with the new magic resistance mechanics. When playing H3 I like to develop the best strategy I can, both in the map and in the battle. I understand battle like something similar to chess game, but with old magic resistance in battle I cant calculate what is the best to do because if I design some movements based on a spell (the most clear example is blind but can be other) it can be ruined. I think old magic resistance made magic nor reliable to design combat movements based on magic as you can design you combat movements based on might.
I think randomness is important too, and I think the game needs random elements like morale, luck, unluck... but they affect in a different way that magic resistance.

Anyway I dont think this change is good or bad I think is quite subjective and depends on the opinión of each player.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chinerwin Syndrome
posted March 18, 2018 03:36 PM

personally I have always said it is a great idea to sort out the broken balance of Heroes 3 and I would play with the changes, thumbs up on that,
however it is completely obvious and valid that other people will disagree with big core game changes because Heroes 3 has been the way it is for 20 years, and 20 years of content depends on that foundation, lol

I will say that if the changes are forced or not optional then it will no longer be possible to be precious about other modders chopping and changing HotA assets (if that even makes sense in the first place, IMO not), because many people will just want to play the Cove etc on top of the NWC Heroes 3 and that will take away that option from them, they will just want to combine it with the official rules and do not care about someone's particular vision lol

if I were the Great God of Heroes (either Zeus, Tom Bombadil or Putin) I would make it to be an option called Neo HotA or something and continue to support old rules, but that is lots of work and I am merely a random plonker lol

in terms of the Resistance I agree that the original skill is not very good, however I do not know if the change really addresses that because it is still highly situational (only relevant when fighting against heroes of magic) cheers lol
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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2018 03:41 PM
Edited by nik312 at 15:43, 18 Mar 2018.

Salamandre said:
nik312 said:

Why do I even post if nobody bothers to read...

"Any randomness", sure. Because the resistance was "any randomness", not the absolute example of how NOT to implement random reatures.


Well, actually I was more commenting your initial post in "whishes thread" where you claimed no wishes contradicting NWC classical vision will be considered. Again, I have no problems with how other people want to play the game, stripping it of core elements if they like. But it contradicts with the opening statement, you guys were the fanatic zealots of the vanilla patterns and concepts, this is what made your force. Now, if you go the custom and experimental way (opponent resistance downgrade my ability to resurrect hitpoints?), I bet your baby will become as controversial as WoG, while it wasn't before. Worth thinking imo.


Well, that's just depends on what one considers "core" to the game. I would argue that although the mechanics of resistance is classical enough to stay in some form (a creature ability as it always was in other heroes games) it is definitely not suited to be one of hero skills and should've never been implemented as such. That is just another NWC mistake that we correct. Such glaring examples are rare, though. But there is some merit to the point, that the skill should've been removed completely and replaced both in name and icon not to create additional dissonance. Maybe it will be the eventual route this takes, maybe not.

Overall, yes, it was obvious that rebalancing skills and spells treads very carefully on the line of non-classic stuff. With resistance being one of the more extreme examples. But we are doing it anyway, trying to stay as close to original as reasonably possible but in case of resistance skill it was not possible at all.

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DrSlash
DrSlash


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 03:43 PM

Salamandre said:
Well, actually I was more commenting your initial post in "whishes thread" where you claimed no wishes contradicting NWC classical vision will be considered.

It's not like NWC wanted to make the game unbalanced, so there really is no contradiction. It's just that back then they didn't have 19 years of experience playing the game and statistics from hundreds of games played each day in multiplayer. If they had access to such data, surely they'd make some adjustments to balance and gameplay. Also, back then not everyone had internet access, so releasing balance patches every now and then wasn't really an option. Besides, let's not forget that there WERE some gameplay and balance changes in the original add-ons, so NWC obviously didn't consider everything to be perfect and set in stone.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 18, 2018 03:47 PM

I see a lot of speculation about what NWC would have done or not. What I can tell you guys is that I daily play the mobile game they develop and designed by JVC, and there is high imbalances too, even battles are a bit RNG dependent in that game. I personally find it exciting, and would certainly not start to position myself as someone 'correcting' the work of someone who gave me at least thousands of hours of entertainment. Some of my most memorable experiences in that game were hotseats against friends and dealing with the unexpected.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted March 18, 2018 03:57 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 15:58, 18 Mar 2018.

revolut1oN said:
Nowadays MP is 99% Jebus Cross, and there army basically serves you as a tool to get the most important spells and artifacts, then its not so important anymore when you can summon 100 elementals each turn and bash powerstacks with spells like 3k damage implosion.

I don't see this as a bad thing, on the contrary. To have a way of using  the magic skills versus Crag or Tazar's overpowered specialty and primary skills distribution is a good thing. It's just that people got used to choose might heroes only and don't want to see their old strategy countered by magic.  

revolut1oN said:
The only problem I can see is compatibility with custom made maps which are built around certain patterns. Maybe mapmaker should be able to have an option to "lock" skill and spell balance type when making map - either original SoD or HotA one. The one chosen would be used when playing the map.

Yes, optional changes would solve the problem. When you took about one year to draw a map and all your testing can be nullified by one unexpected change in the magic system, you think twice about spending another year developing another. But this is WoG's way...

Salamandre said:
As I see it, the game - as NWC imagined it - went agony mode as soon as the first closed template was fan created. From there indeed, skills as resistance, eagle eye, scouting, first aid and ballistic became 100% useless, "rules" banned spells and specific actions (dim door, hit and run, castle siege), and all strategy went into brute force expressed by natural fight skills only. The skirmish for scare resources, artifacts and towns ended because now you had time to plan and realize that plan, while before you had to counter another intelligence whose goal was to constantly, from the first day, prohibit you from achieving your plan. Now you can always build that mage guild - or get its alike from generous relics areas - while before you had to choose and take a risk: army or magic.

So from now, is obvious that all upcoming modding will go into that direction, remove any randomness and luck based features from the game then transform it in sort of chess where the best always win. That's fine if supported by a majority, but let's not lie: this is NOT what NWC would have done, ever.

I second this entirely.

Salamandre said:
I was more commenting your initial post in "whishes thread" where you claimed no wishes contradicting NWC classical vision will be considered... But it contradicts with the opening statement, you guys were the fanatic zealots of the vanilla patterns and concepts, this is what made your force. Now, if you go the custom and experimental way (opponent resistance downgrade my ability to resurrect hitpoints?), I bet your baby will become as controversial as WoG, while it wasn't before. Worth thinking imo.

And this also.
I never said I will not be playing the mod anymore, what I said and maintain is that my next map will not be for Hota. I can't trust that the moment I finish it it will be playable, since I'm not even sure this one is.

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just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted March 18, 2018 04:02 PM

nik312 said:
But there is some merit to the point, that the skill should've been removed completely and replaced both in name and icon not to create additional dissonance.
How about Dissonance as the name of the new skill? LOL.

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imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 04:15 PM

Docent_Picolan said:



In order to allow the players to compare the two mechanics and appreciate the advantages of the new one, we introduced the test version option in the HotA 1.5.3 launcher. With it enabled, the game will employ the old Resistance mechanic. This will give the players who have unfinished games started with the old skill version the option to complete their games with all the advantages of the new stable release, albeit with the old skill mechanic. The Crew, however, is not planning on reverting the change; the old mechanic will be completely abolished by the next major release.

Another important point is understanding that altered Resistance skill and rebalanced spells do not make up the entirety of our plans to rework the game's magic system. These exact changes are merely measures to accommodate banning Orb of Negation and Recanter's Cloak on all official templates. Simply speaking, these steps were made to allow for acceptable magic-based gameplay until next major releases are rolled out.

A large-scale rebalancing operation is currently being planned; it will include altering magic skills (such as Eagle Eye and Mysticism), dealing with overwhelmingly useful (for instance, Mass Slow) and miserably useless (for instance, Magic Mirror) spells, and solving the issue of poorly interbalanced magic schools. This is a complex undertaking which is of high priority for upcoming releases. It is meant to be batch delivered in one update.


hey HOTA team, great change! I like a lot how you guys plan to continue balancing the game. These days I play a lot AOW 3, but now I start again with HOTA So some people are going to stop playing, but many more are going to join again. The people who just like to complain do not come with better ideas, I personally prefer a good mode/game not 100 of stupid modes just because...

One important question, though: is there any way to make AI more competitive?

cheers!  

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Nephretes
Nephretes


Promising
Known Hero
posted March 18, 2018 04:52 PM
Edited by Nephretes at 16:57, 18 Mar 2018.

Oh my, H3 hardcore fans are so severe

While I kind of understand the reason behind the change, I wouldn't go as far as to claim that this is how NWC would have done it (if at all). Without any evidence we may just speculate.

With this said, I am mostly here for new graphics as a 3D artist myself. So whether HotA goes in WoG direction or not, I don't mind it as long I am getting more trees .

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 18, 2018 04:58 PM

Playing the Devil's advocate here, but any game change - whether its an official expansion or a fan-made one - is going to have an impact on already existing material.

Any map that has been made in the past will need to be re-evaluated by its creator against the new material to see if it's still usable under the new version or requires changes and/or adaptations. Maps that need changes but aren't getting them - for whatever reason that might be - become obsolete, playable at best with older versions only.

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Alyx182008
Alyx182008


Hired Hero
posted March 18, 2018 05:20 PM

I guess this whole debacle around Resistance skill goes to show what happens when a game that was never meant to be an eSport starts getting treated like one, where people get disappointed (to put it mildly) that they lost to someone potentially weaker, because a random based skill did or didn't kick in at the right time and it messed up their precisely calculated tactic.

Except, I don't think that Heroes 3 was meant to be an eSport. But if that is what HoTA crew has in mind, then I wish them good luck. And just as I have no interest in playing Overwatch, I'll probably end up completely ignoring HoTA if this becomes the trend.

I have no ill will towards the creators, I wish them the best of luck and for everyone playing this mod/expansion, have fun!

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R0d
R0d

Tavern Dweller
posted March 18, 2018 05:53 PM

Salamandre said:
nik312 said:

Why do I even post if nobody bothers to read...

"Any randomness", sure. Because the resistance was "any randomness", not the absolute example of how NOT to implement random reatures.


Well, actually I was more commenting your initial post in "whishes thread" where you claimed no wishes contradicting NWC classical vision will be considered. Again, I have no problems with how other people want to play the game, stripping it of core elements if they like. But it contradicts with the opening statement, you guys were the fanatic zealots of the vanilla patterns and concepts, this is what made your force. Now, if you go the custom and experimental way (opponent resistance downgrade my ability to resurrect hitpoints?), I bet your baby will become as controversial as WoG, while it wasn't before. Worth thinking imo.


Exactly, that's the reason why I among others loved HOTA because it felt like an actual expansion made by the creators of the original game. But this last update in my opinion puts Hota in the same category of WOG, and that's a shame. If this change remains going forward, then I won't update the game anymore.
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