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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 306 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 60 120 180 240 300 ... 302 303 304 305 306 · «PREV / NEXT»
P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted April 01, 2018 11:09 AM
Edited by P4R4D0X0N at 11:21, 01 Apr 2018.

just0 said:
P4R4D0X0N said:
I agree on renaming/replacing it. The name resistance doesn't fit very well according to the effect it has.
Why stop with the name of the skill? The whole game should be renamed to Heroes of Might and Magic Suppression III.

Personally, in the upcoming rework, I hope they are able to keep the spirit of the old mechanic intact and avoid the need to rename anything at all.


Nah... the actual change is useful, since you can at least calculate with it, compared to a RNG clusterf*ck it's way better. Even leadership and luck is still useless because of the RNG part of the game. Unit speed or additional damage in a smaller amount is way better than the actual behaviour of leadership and luck imho. Granted the change of these good old fashioned skills may seem harsh on some ppl. But every change and every try to balance the game some more is an unique change and leading to new content, new strategies and new gameplay. It may even force you to give up 20 year old strategies and thats the spirit and way to go imho. A game that doesn't change much and is super repetive is a dead game by definition. Some tweaks here, some balance there and we're fine. I would even like test builds and tournaments to get some balance done in HoMM3.

As for the name change, I would introduce new skills instead of rewriting old ones. In that case you would be able to get some more skills in the game. (If this is an option at all, and possible with hardcode) Granted it takes some more balancing in that case, but for the good imho. If you take a look on secondary skills and the points which skills you may get as a witch, this already needs some hard balance imho.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2018 11:36 AM

P4R4D0X0N said:


Even leadership and luck is still useless because of the RNG part of the game. Unit speed or additional damage in a smaller amount is way better than the actual behaviour of leadership and luck imho.


Even under the presence of spirit of oppression/hourglass of the evil hour those 2 skills are actually useful since negative morale/luck cannot be eliminated.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2018 11:44 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 11:52, 01 Apr 2018.

FrothFrenzy said:
Before, I used to get Archangel scores almost all the time, now the highest is 'only' a Haspid.

In the documentation, all I found was this:"The way of map winning score calculation was changed. Now it is harder to get higher ranks."

So, how exactly was it changed?

Well, I can't understand that either. I got a Rust Dragon from cleaning a Giant (XXL) map with 48 towns plus the bonus for finding the Grail and no Fly or DD available, in 80 days.
I really doubt it is still possible to get the Crystal Dragons I got almost every time I played an unaltered random map, in previous versions.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2018 11:54 AM
Edited by OrrinIsTheBest at 12:06, 01 Apr 2018.

bloodsucker said:

Well, I can't understand that either. I got a Rust Dragon from cleaning a Giant (XXL) map with 48 towns with the bonus for finding the Grail and no Fly or DD available, in 80 days.
I really doubt it is still possible to get the Crystal Dragons I got almost every time I played an unaltered random map, in previous versions.


Speaking of which i completed a 200%/H+U vs 7 allied AI random map in 22 days the other day for testing purposes and  got only 390(chaos hydra). I really don't care much about score but would love to see the new formula since i believe it is somehow broken.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2018 12:01 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:20, 01 Apr 2018.

OrrinIsTheBest said:
i completed a 200%/H+U vs 8 allied AI random map in 22 days the other day for testing purposes and  got only 390(chaos hydra).

Guess you wanted to say 7 allied AI but the number of players was not important, the number of towns you took and if you got the grail or not were the only factors in the original formula. I think they added the size sometime ago.
I know you would get 500 from finishing a map with 48 towns+grail in less then 28 days, even one town less and you couldn't get the perfect score (500), in the original versions.

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OrrinIsTheBest
OrrinIsTheBest


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2018 12:14 PM

bloodsucker said:

The number of players was never important, the number of towns you took and if you got the grail or not were the only factors in the original formula. I think they added the size sometime ago.

It's my opinion but i believe the most important factor in terms of getting higher score should be the amount of days you spend to finish off all the opponents. But then again it's single player so not a big deal.


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2018 12:17 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:30, 01 Apr 2018.

Well, I can even agree with you but what I know is that it wasn't part of the original formula.
Two problems with your premises, first it is possible to make a map with 48 towns, extremely hard to beat and where there are less then 8 players. Second, scores only matter in Single Player, since no one cares about finishing a Multiplayer map, it ends when the other guy calls GG. Even then many guys just quit without giving you that satisfaction, at least in my experience...

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just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2018 12:24 PM
Edited by just0 at 12:26, 01 Apr 2018.

P4R4D0X0N said:
just0 said:
Personally, in the upcoming rework, I hope they are able to keep the spirit of the old mechanic intact and avoid the need to rename anything at all.
Nah... the actual change is useful, since you can at least calculate with it
"Keeping the spirit of the old mechanic intact" and "changing it into a useful skill" are in no way mutually exclusive. Considering that all magic is being reworked, a small to change to each skill may be all that is needed to keep the spirit of these skills intact while making them all more balancedly useful. It may not be the easiest thing in the world, but to quote Teddy Roosevelt:
"Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means [at least some level of] effort, pain, [and] difficulty..."

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2018 12:34 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:37, 01 Apr 2018.

just0 said:
to quote Teddy Roosevelt:
"Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means [at least some level of] effort, pain, [and] difficulty..."

That guy definitively didn't knew my first girlfriend...

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graenfur
graenfur


Hired Hero
posted April 01, 2018 03:06 PM
Edited by graenfur at 15:07, 01 Apr 2018.

About score.. some of this already is discussed (I don't believe the exact formula have been revealed anywhere)..

Sav said:
Yes, the score calculation was changed. Now it stronger depends on day count, it also depends on map difficulty and map size and weaker depends on grail. The formula is complex enough, but to win more score you should complete the map as fast as possible, and try to capture all the towns (like in original game, but slower game now penalized stronger, and in case of fast game each single day makes difference).

The main point was to make score more fair, and make it really hard to get the strongest creatures. For example, now it is impossible to get easy Archangel on the map like Good to Go.

quote link

pellish said:
Is 500 still the highest possible high score?

Sav said:
Yes. But now it is even more impossible to reach. It cannot be reached on small-size maps or, for instance, on random maps. But 500 is now Azure Dragon rank. Archangel requires less score.

quote link

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted April 01, 2018 03:29 PM

I don't want to describe the precise formula, but I'll make things clearer a bit.

1. Now the map difficulty (one that is set up by map creator) gives additional score: from 0 (easy) to 40 (impossible). But the grail and "defeat all enemies" give only 5 score each (instead of 25 in SoD).

All random maps have normal difficulty, so the maximum possible score on them is 440 (430 without grail) (counting x2 on 200% difficulty).

2. The day penalty was changed. Now the special minimum day count is calculated depending on map size and captured town count. The victory in this limit is considered as perfect and gets no penalty. Each day after minimum adds 2 points to the penalty up to 50 points (x2 on 200%). Original game penalty is also used (but its effect is much less).


In general, to get the higher score you should do the same things as earlier: win as soon as possible, and capture as many towns as possible. Grail also gives a bonus. But now it is much harded to get the best ranks. In the end, it was a strange situation, when it was possible to get highest ranks without any challenge.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy

Tavern Dweller
posted April 01, 2018 07:46 PM

Sav said:
In general, to get the higher score you should do the same things as earlier: win as soon as possible, and capture as many towns as possible. Grail also gives a bonus. But now it is much harded to get the best ranks. In the end, it was a strange situation, when it was possible to get highest ranks without any challenge.


I see. I guess I would prefer to have the exact formula posted somewhere but this explanation is as good as any. Just one more thing - in this case you actually have to capture all of the towns? So you get a penalty if you finish the game with some towns left unclaimed?

Thank you for the response.

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted April 01, 2018 08:31 PM
Edited by Sav at 20:32, 01 Apr 2018.

FrothFrenzy said:
I see. I guess I would prefer to have the exact formula posted somewhere but this explanation is as good as any. Just one more thing - in this case you actually have to capture all of the towns? So you get a penalty if you finish the game with some towns left unclaimed?

No, the towns only influence the maximum game legth without penalty. E. g. if you've captured only 50% of map towns by the end of the game, then the map size is considered to be 2 times less, so the penalty starts earlier. On small map sizes the penalty may start from the first day, in this case 500 score is impossible (but it is impossible on all maps except ones with "impossible" difficulty anyway).

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ericoz
ericoz


Adventuring Hero
posted April 01, 2018 10:29 PM

People complaining about resistance and the protection spells make no sense. They were bad before and are still bad now. None are remotely close to be played on a meta game.

Yes it felt like a nerf to magic heroes but they are already so bad to begin with it doesn't really matter.

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FrothFrenzy
FrothFrenzy

Tavern Dweller
posted April 01, 2018 10:47 PM

Sav said:
No, the towns only influence the maximum game legth without penalty. E. g. if you've captured only 50% of map towns by the end of the game, then the map size is considered to be 2 times less, so the penalty starts earlier. On small map sizes the penalty may start from the first day, in this case 500 score is impossible (but it is impossible on all maps except ones with "impossible" difficulty anyway).


That makes sense, yeah. Thank you for the explanation!

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foerno
foerno


Hired Hero
posted April 02, 2018 05:26 AM

Sav said:
I don't want to describe the precise formula [for calculating game score], but I'll make things clearer a bit.


any particular reason not to post the formula?

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Orrinisthebest
Orrinisthebest


Adventuring Hero
posted April 02, 2018 09:21 AM

ericoz said:
People complaining about resistance and the protection spells make no sense. They were bad before and are still bad now. None are remotely close to be played on a meta game.

Yes, it feels like a nerf to magic heroes but they are already so bad to begin with it doesn't really matter. But why does resistance cut 30% of enemy power while sorcery gives a puny 15% bonus only to damage spells it's beyond me. Shouldn't sorcery also give you a 10/20/30% bonus to power? The whole power/knowledge mechanic being outscaled hard by attack and defense will always make magic heroes bad, and it's the same reason why resistance will still be bad even with this change.


First of all protection spells are pretty decent as for now, i dont even know why you think they are bad. Secondly team already announced that weak magic skills will be reworked as well so best you can do is to wait until the next major patch.

As to new resistance, considering all the reactions, they won't keep it that way. I assume in the worst-case scenario it will be golem-like resistance which imo is better than previous versions.

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Jluil
Jluil

Tavern Dweller
posted April 02, 2018 11:02 PM

I'm not very fond of the change as well.
Sure it's nice as an experiment, maybe a new orb of inhibition could do something like this(for both sides?), but as a skill no-no.

Magic heroes are really bad because:
- they run out of mana fast early in the game
- mage guild is unreliable(patch partially solves this) and costs a lot of resources, which you rather invest into dwellings
- 75% of spells are useless
- for mass slow/haste/curse/bless you are good with 3 power 3 knowledge
- massive armies stack better with attack/defence; most spells are only good vs lower army counts

I have good faith in hota team, however i would start with changes like +mana reg. per knowledge and addressing mass spellcasting..
Also multiplicative resistance stacking is necessary - Thorgrim with some resistance artifacts is now absurd.

Protection spells were always a gamble - they only work vs damaging spells and you have to correctly guess the magic school.
So who is going to use that?
Also what excatly is protection from water - like protection from ice bolt or ice ring?
A single protection spell would make much more sense with a more balanced % and would not occupy too many precious mage guild slots.


____________

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Neelx
Neelx

Tavern Dweller
posted April 03, 2018 01:02 AM

question

it says its compatible with heroes HD from steam...

how do you make it work ?
____________

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just0
just0


Adventuring Hero
posted April 03, 2018 01:53 AM
Edited by just0 at 04:22, 05 Apr 2018.

Neelx said:
it says its compatible with heroes HD from steam...
Not compatible with the HD edition from steam. When the description refers to an "HD mod" it means the addon made by baratorch: https://sites.google.com/site/heroes3hd/

You can buy the original game itself from gog: https://www.gog.com/game/heroes_of_might_and_magic_3_complete_edition.

Here's an installation guide:
The directory isn't important, just make sure it's consistent.

1. Install setup_homm_3_complete_4.0_(10665).exe to C:/Games/Heroes3
2. Install HotA_1.5.3_setup.exe to C:/Games/Heroes3
3. Install HoMM3 HD Latest.exe to C:/Games/Heroes3
4. Run HD_Launcher.exe found in C:/Games/Heroes3
5. Click "Create HD exe" for both h3hota.exe and Heroes3.exe (use the dropdown)

Now you can run Horn of the Abyss from "h3hota HD.exe" and Shadow of Death from "Heroes3 HD.exe"

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