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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 08:23 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
They are forcing us with their changes, for good, for bad.
Not all of them, Diplomacy changes can easily be reverted in the template editor as well as Interference can be replaced with the old Resistance, while the nerfs of Logistics and Slow are forced on us and both can break a ton of maps, one reason to think all changes should be optional like it happens in WoG.
The way they are doing it soon you will need three or four versions of HotA installed simultaneously, if you still want to play the older maps. I don't think that's a good way to go.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 08:26 PM |
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@revolut1oN
Then they should simply just make a special competitive PvP version (which can't be edited) and a regular version, without access to competitive PvP (which can be edited). Simple as that. And there are more casual players than competitive PvP players in the first place, but the PvP players are the most vocal because they tend to be more active on the internet than the others, who usually have families, work, etc.
@bloodsucker
Yeah, I know about Diplomacy thing. I still have 2-3 HotAs installed on my PC (HoMM3 + HotA barely takes space on my PC). And especially Logistics is the problem here (which can be solved as I said up here, or by making it an option, as you said).
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 08:32 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
They should simply just make a special competitive PvP version (which can't be edited) and a regular version, without access to competitive PvP (which can be edited). Simple as that.
That seams more like the way to go. 
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 08:36 PM |
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revolut1oN said:
You should understand that not everybody plays the same map against the AI over and over again like you do. People play multiplayer and expect to have more or less equal chances of winning, especially given there are tournaments with for example money prizes at stake. The sprite was extremely unbalanced since you could basically clear whole map with them and abuse their high speed and no retaliation. Also calling their changes to some skills "ruining" makes you look very conceited at least. Be mindful that there are people who do not agree with your (very narrow) perspective of how the game should look; I for example could call your changes ruining game. It is their vision and their mod so take it as it is or leave it I guess.
Good post, agree 100%.
FirePaladin said:
@revolut1oN
Then they should simply just make a special competitive PvP version (which can't be edited) and a regular version, without access to competitive PvP (which can be edited). Simple as that. And there are more casual players than competitive PvP players in the first place, but the PvP players are the most vocal because they tend to be more active on the internet than the others, who usually have families, work, etc.
"Then they should simply..."
It's not all that simple. And two versions means double the work. There are various of Homm3 platforms, not all them have to be intended for user modding.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 08:44 PM |
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Well, not really double the work, if you know how to manage the two versions. Inside the team, you could have a base version, which is the non-PvP one, and before the update rolls they can just simply tweak it again for PvP and rebuild the PvP version. Same goes for the reversed scenario, with PvP -> regular.
We aren't getting anywhere again (we won't get).
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 30, 2020 09:45 PM |
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All I ask for is a little more flexibility and customization and a little more communication on their part, is that so much to ask for.
@FirePaladin Excellent idea with an "open" and a "locked" version.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 10:09 PM |
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DrSlash said:
fred79 said:
...i don't suppose you guys have nude versions? 
I've just read this post.
Guys, when images aren't available, just enter WebArchive and copy-paste the image's link there. In many cases, the internet archive probably has the image stored inside of it (like is the case with this one).
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 10:17 PM |
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"Why don't you just..."
"All I'm asking for is..."
"You should simply..."
As a contributor to Linux FLOSS projects I know this attitude from users (with or without insight into the project internals / technical understanding).
With FLOSS projects users feel even more entitled to have an influence on where things are going.
In such discussions as maintainer or contributor it's really hard to bring your point forward without being the bogeyman. Sometimes stuff like this takes away your motivation to dedicate freetime to the project.
The HotA crew might be scratching their own itch first and foremost, maybe they are doing this for the benefit of the wider community but why would they cater for the fancy needs of some exuberantly vocal individuals?
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 10:21 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Well, not really double the work, if you know how to manage the two versions. Inside the team, you could have a base version, which is the non-PvP one, and before the update rolls they can just simply tweak it again for PvP and rebuild the PvP version. Same goes for the reversed scenario, with PvP -> regular.
I don't really see how they would avoid doing double work in the long run. Designing a moddable version from all the content they have done in the past and all the features they will add in the future. Then all the updating and bug fixing for both versions. And basically all the campaigns and official custom maps should be build on the idea that things could be changed by the player and then the maps should still be beatable. It would be a nightmare at this point.
FirePaladin said:
We aren't getting anywhere again (we won't get).
Well, if all people would think first and then write, this would be way easier. Calling things 'crap' or game breaking, insulting developers that work for free, talking about the same things over and over again in various threads, and generally showing no respect towards the work that has been for 12 years should not be tolerated. (even if you would agree with the points)
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 10:24 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
The HotA crew might be scratching their own itch first and foremost, maybe they are doing this for the benefit of the wider community but why would they cater for the fancy needs of some exuberantly vocal individuals?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted April 30, 2020 10:49 PM |
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Give developers a peace. Yes they are doing radical like JVC thought in H5. JVC doesn't look at you, what he did H4, and he tried still H5.
But developers could create an option like WoG/ERA. Player chooses original (skill for example) or developer's choice/option.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 11:03 PM |
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Ghost said:
Give developers a peace. Yes they are doing radical like JVC thought in H5. JVC doesn't look at you, what he did H4, and he tried still H5.
But developers could create an option like WoG/ERA. Player chooses original (skill for example) or developer's choice/option.
I am (I just expressed what I don't like at HotA; the limitations), but we are always stretching this kind of discussions for pages (not blaming anyone, though). Nowadays, I'm tired of limitations (well, I always was). I want freedom.
@hourglass
I still respect their work, even if my "complaint" posts don't seem to show that (and I think first, that's why I take my time to write). But why introduce such a patch to not even allow you to tweak your game a little? I mean, if you play PvP with your changes, it's your problem, you get banned. And geez, that classic "should not be tolerated!" to put a cap over the bottle and end the argument, it's cringe already.
We're talking about the same thing because someone opens the discussion again; by me, I probably would have only mentioned anything about the limitations only once in a while (several times a year), and not as a major subject. HotA team does what they want, after all. I just went with the flow and expressed my opinions and ideas when I got the occasion.
They might make a moddable version after ending work on HotA, I think, since then they won't need to update two versions at the same time if HotA support ended.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted April 30, 2020 11:42 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
@hourglass
I still respect their work, even if my "complaint" posts don't seem to show that (and I think first, that's why I take my time to write). But why introduce such a patch to not even allow you to tweak your game a little? I mean, if you play PvP with your changes, it's your problem, you get banned. And geez, that classic "should not be tolerated!" to put a cap over the bottle and end the argument, it's cringe already.
I know you do respect their work, and I wasn't talking about you in my last message. You're not to blamed for anything that I mentioned. I was - well - talking about one particular user, who brings this stuff over and over again to the discussions, and it has gotten very old recently.
IMO it's okay to ask for moddability, but we should also respect the developers if the answer turns out to be "no" or "maybe later". (Again, not talking about you) After all, Hota hasn't clearly answered to this call, but they have not been very open to the user modding in the past I would say.
Therefore, nagging about this very topic over and over again in various topics make no sense to me, and is very tasteless to say the least (still not talking about you)
That's why the cringy part, but I promise to never use it again.  (if you catch me using it, I promise to post a open letter to the Hota team with a subject "You need to nerf Cove now.  "
FirePaladin said:
They might make a moddable version after ending work on HotA, I think, since then they won't need to update two versions at the same time if HotA support ended.
Well, that's defintely a possibility, and I'm not generally against the idea. Making it at the end of the project would totally make sense.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted April 30, 2020 11:47 PM |
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@Hourglass
Lol, okay dude.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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planetavril
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2020 07:23 AM |
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to customize the game, there is era II and Vcmi, HotA is fine as it is
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted May 01, 2020 09:52 AM |
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You guys know what, back in the days when the WoG mod was developed there were no such discussions. If some of these nagging kids had an idea, they were just like:"snow it, do it yourself and we put in the game as an option."
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted May 01, 2020 10:05 AM |
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planetavril said:
to customize the game, there is era II and Vcmi, HotA is fine as it is
It was when they nerfed the absurd values of Necromancy and Phoenix growth. It's way less when they butcher things like Slow, Logistics and Intelligence, that can get in the way of players being able to finish maps designed for their own mod.
One thing I agree with Phoenix is that the pre-requisites for upgrading the Magic Lantern are illogical when you consider how much easier it is to get Harpy Hags or Cerberi. It could even be ok if the restrictions only applied to human players but to force AI to fight with pixies for a long time is problematic.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 01, 2020 10:19 AM |
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They could maybe require Air/Storm Elementals or something among these lines, if changing their requirements comes into discussion.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted May 01, 2020 11:40 AM |
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FirePaladin said:
@revolut1oN
Then they should simply just make a special competitive PvP version (which can't be edited) and a regular version, without access to competitive PvP (which can be edited). Simple as that. And there are more casual players than competitive PvP players in the first place, but the PvP players are the most vocal because they tend to be more active on the internet than the others, who usually have families, work, etc
This is not true on many levels.
They can't make two distinct versions since they have stated long ago that they don't want to go the WoG way and make a customizable experience; everything needs to polished and spotless within the limits of one vision.
I dont think there are more offline than online players. And even if there are more offline players, it is no them who are the supportive part of the community, they are more likely casuals who dont care about mechanics since they are emm... casuals. Many modern games can't boast about having 1500+ players (sometimes 2000) active at any time like hota does.
Also what makes you assume that online players have no families or work lol? I do for instance. This is prejudice.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted May 01, 2020 11:57 AM |
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I didn't assume that. And their game isn't spotless.
Anyway, we ended this discussion already. There's no point in continuing it, since everyone has their own opinion and they won't give it up.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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This Super Thread is pages long: 
