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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Popular Thread is 447 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 90 180 270 360 ... 443 444 445 446 447 · «PREV / NEXT»
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 01, 2020 11:14 PM

Well by buffing Fireball and Inferno (spell) you would also buff Xarfax and Xyron and if efreet could be affected by Bloodlust, you would also buff Ash. In fact the whole town would be buffed if it decided to go with Fire Magic, which is the "destiny" of all Inferno heroes, except Olema...

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evildustructor
evildustructor


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2020 01:36 AM
Edited by evildustructor at 01:44, 02 Sep 2020.

reworking magic in an arbitrary way for certain factions would be a bad move for the general design I feel, i think the hota crew are on the right track with their balance changes so far and doing radical stuff like these things you guys are proposing feels a bit off to me imo

scholars not a snow skill , it's for the side heroes to spread spells, wisdom+scholar heroes are good in most templates where magic is good. a high level scholar will carry u far in templates like 6lm where you build mage guild for control asap, id go so far and say it is necessary if you dont have books and control scrolls available. which is also why alamar is so good in 6lm and xyrons pretty alright

i think just wanting change for change's sake and searching for a perfectly balanced game like starcraft will be a conflict with the general design of the game, i think minor changes and major reworks while still keeping the old games spirit has been a great design viewpoint so far from the hota crew town trade in itself helps with the balance immeasurably, but yeah I do think there's still interesting work needed to be done but it will come when it will come just making weird exceptions like making efreetis bloodlust receptible and adding everything people want will make hota just like some wog mods and turn away new players = bad, hotas current direction where they probably have a design carefully planned out in some way and new people are steadily trying it out and liking it with easily accessible multiplayer = good

but yeah ofc listening to player feedback is essential, but isnt it the same 10 players in here successively writing new suggestions?

loving the general direction of the design btw, props to u all in hota crew !!!<3

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted September 02, 2020 07:12 AM

evildustructor said:
will make hota just like some wog mods and turn away new players = bad,

A nice theory you have here. What if some of these WoG changes would actually make new players join the game because skills are much better and more enjoyable?
But wait I have an idea, then we call these changes "HotA changes" and not WoG-like because wog is bad and drives away new players.
Would that work?

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pizdabol
pizdabol


Hired Hero
posted September 02, 2020 08:13 AM

I think allowing Fiends to spawn Demons without having to loose a whole stack would be a pretty huge deal for Inferno. Huge stack of Demons is no joke, but the way it works now is a real snow to micromanage. I've always though that's kind of a dick move from 3DO, like someone on the team really hated that faction. If not then atleas make fing Angels work the same way. Those aholes

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LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2020 01:10 PM

Memo said:
Docent Picolan recently said that there will be no new artifacts and skill fixes in 1.7. Only the city itself and the campaign. Skill changes are planned for the next major update, but when it will be is unknown.

This then might be read to indicate that the campaign will not prominently feature an 'artifact hunt' story (as the Horn of the Abyss served in the present HOTA campaigns), though of course it may be less categorical and still leave open for only-in-maps-with-it-specifically-selected artifacts like, well, the Horn of the Abyss, with it being artifacts meant to be present in the multiplayer context that will not be in 1.7.

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Tordah
Tordah


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2020 11:31 PM

Hourglass said:
Tordah said:


You could say the same for liches, but liches actually do damages contrary to magogs lmao

it's not that big of a buff.


It is a very good buff actually.

I, and probably most other players didn't even bother to upgrade magogs back in SOD, since they could probably only shoot in the beginning of the battle, if you wouldn't want to target your own units as well. And even then, it was unlikely to use the AOE damage as your advantage. Now you don't really need to worry about shooting your own creatures, and it's far easier to target multiple stacks at once. Magogs are probably 4th or 5th best creatures in their tier, depending how one is willing to rate harpy hags. So, they're avarage or slighly better than that, but there are fights they're clearly better than Marksman, for example.

You're right that Inferno is a bad town, likely the worst one actually, but they're better than that sounds tbh. One thing I would like adress is that I've seen couple of times now that people seem to strongly connect Fire magic to Inferno as well, but that's pretty much only true lorewise, as gameplaywise Fire magic doesn't really offer much to Inferno - yes, efreets are immune the armageddon, but that's really it. Inferno heroes have only slightly increased chances of learning fire magic, so fire magic's "badness" isn't really connected to the town itself and slight buffs to fire magic wouldn't make much difference for Inferno.



Ok i can concede that the aiming mechanic has buffed magogs. That is entirely true. But they still do very little damages.

The thing compared to marksmen is that ok marksmen don't zone attack but they attack twice and hard, plus coupled with Valeska or that other archery hero (orin or olin i can't remember) both these usually have leadership, and marksmen attacking 4 times is just the best 2nd tier unit imo.

i love upgraded harpies. when i play dungeon i play lorelei all the time and upgrade them first, then buy the hero in the tavern for a massive day1 stack of harpies hags. they have no enemy retaliation and high speed, so they can evade on the battlefield, do most week1 fights and also Lorelei becomes fast on the map. It usually ends up being a secondary hero though (i start building a second good dungeon hero second week with the rest of the army) but first week is just too good with harpies hags.

Unfortunately your analysis of magic with inferno is wrong because they have zero chances of learning a lot of early water magic (bless/frost ring) which is the best early game and the best for mass casting (expert level). They also have higher chances of getting fire spells, which is a huge misfortune hardcoded into the game because at level 3 you are almost certain to be stuck with fireball (worst level 3 attack spell because of crappy spell power scaling and most units immunned to fire), level 4 you have the same chances of getting inferno as chain lightning (and inferno is massively underpowered compared to chain lightning, this could be replaced by having a better chance of getting berserk which for some reason it's the necropolis that has the highest chances), and level 5 you have a high chance of getting sacrifice which is absolute garbage.

It's also dungeon that has the highest chances of getting armageddon, for historical reasons i suppose (heroes 2), yet it's much better with inferno.

So let's say you end up getting earth magic, it's a gamble not in your favour level 4 and 5 mage guild to get meteor shower or implosion. if you don't get either, you're fugged. your best offensive spell will be magic arrow lmao.

now let's say you play air magic, if you don't get chain lightning you're kinda fugged. plus level 5 you can't learn air elementals. your best bet is regular lightning but nothing guarantees you'll get it in the guild, it's still an average occurence spell.

Just so you know, expert lightning is 50 + 25*SP, fireball is 60 + 10*SP. that means at 1SP lightning hits harder for a lower cost. Frost ring hits the same as fireball but for a lower cost, excluding the center hex. (water is supposed by design to deal less damage btw, if you compare ice bolt to lightning).

then meteor shower is 100 + 25*SP for the same cost as fireball (totally outshines fireball, hands down). Chain lightning is even better with 100 + 40*SP which is insane. Inferno on the other hand is 80 + 10*SP which is legit garbage.

Inferno is supposed to be the best fire damaging spell (other than armageddon but it's suicide) but it hardly does more than fireball or frost ring, and it's bugged so sometimes it doesn't register a hit for 2hex units.

So the town somewhat was designed for the heroes to get fire magic and other than blind there is no reliable ways to build up magic in this town. You usually end up choosing one depending on what you get, or depending on what's available in another town.

It's not cool because other towns that are magic-centric such as tower or dungeon have reliably good magic available to them all game long.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2020 01:09 AM

So you say Magogs don't deal damage but harpies are cool?
And I think you overestimate the relevance of damage spells.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2020 04:12 PM

Tordah said:

Unfortunately your analysis of magic with inferno is wrong because...


Well, perhaps I didn't make myself clear and ended up representing myself in a bad way.

My point simply was that one shouldn't connect Inferno and Fire magic too much. Inferno may get slightly more fire spells, and their heroes may try to learn fire magic more than others, but it's still pretty much the same old and bad fire magic. Sadly, there aren't any real synergies to be found, and the town doesn't magically come together by trying to make fire work. The only real connection is armageddon and the sultans, but you simply don't need to build fire magic in order to use that trick.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 03, 2020 04:40 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:47, 03 Sep 2020.

* Bloodlust is okay, but better if it worked with efreet.
* Curse and Misfortune is a way to lower enemy damage and Inferno is the town with the least amount of HP, so they can be useful.
* Protection from Fire is when you want to protect units and cast Armageddon, also protects against enemy Fire Shield.  
* Expert Blind means the enemy can't retaliate and if you fight a single powerful stack, you can essentially Blind, attack, Blind, attack forever and never take any damage.  
* Berserk is awesome and will not affect your own efreet.
* Frenzy is good with devils, as they often will get the turn first. Can also be used with gogs, if you are sure nobody can reach them.
* Sacrifice is "poor mans Resurrection" and imps are perfect to sacrifice, one way or another. Just some low level units can bring back Arch Devils.

Just a few ways Inferno works with Fire Magic.

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Tordah
Tordah


Adventuring Hero
posted September 03, 2020 08:17 PM

gatecrasher said:
So you say Magogs don't deal damage but harpies are cool?
And I think you overestimate the relevance of damage spells.


I mostly said harpies are a very strong starting option, that's it. if you upgrade them on day one, Lorelei 3 stacks + tavern hero + dwelling gets you around 30 for very cheap, and that single stack alone can get you very far and fast because they can manage most early fights, coupled with high speed = fast map movement.

I think it's an underrated option.

a good stack of magog, with Calh 3 stacks + tavern + dwelling, doesn't get you as far.

i'm also mostly comparing the damage spells for comparison mostly. If you have the option to use damage spells for earth and air magic (even water, but it's not as good) i think it should also be a viable option with fire magic. especially that fire magic is somewhat the defacto damage option in most fantasy settings.

i mean they made the spells, right, they just didn't make the damages high enough, for no real reasons to be honest. we end up with the weakest faction being bound to the weakest magic.

Hourglass said:
Tordah said:

Unfortunately your analysis of magic with inferno is wrong because...


Well, perhaps I didn't make myself clear and ended up representing myself in a bad way.

My point simply was that one shouldn't connect Inferno and Fire magic too much. Inferno may get slightly more fire spells, and their heroes may try to learn fire magic more than others, but it's still pretty much the same old and bad fire magic. Sadly, there aren't any real synergies to be found, and the town doesn't magically come together by trying to make fire work. The only real connection is armageddon and the sultans, but you simply don't need to build fire magic in order to use that trick.


I understood completely, but what i meant mostly is that there is a disadvantage going out of the regular path. it's not good design.

phoenix4ever said:
* Bloodlust is okay, but better if it worked with efreet.
* Curse and Misfortune is a way to lower enemy damage and Inferno is the town with the least amount of HP, so they can be useful.
* Protection from Fire is when you want to protect units and cast Armageddon, also protects against enemy Fire Shield.  
* Expert Blind means the enemy can't retaliate and if you fight a single powerful stack, you can essentially Blind, attack, Blind, attack forever and never take any damage.  
* Berserk is awesome and will not affect your own efreet.
* Frenzy is good with devils, as they often will get the turn first. Can also be used with gogs, if you are sure nobody can reach them.
* Sacrifice is "poor mans Resurrection" and imps are perfect to sacrifice, one way or another. Just some low level units can bring back Arch Devils.

Just a few ways Inferno works with Fire Magic.


Berserk and Blind are my two favorite spells. While as i said, blind is a very reliable option when you go fire magic, berserk is not, because you have very few chances of getting it at all.

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted September 03, 2020 08:33 PM

I just had a quick question. It's about the two 7th tier units for Factory.

Saw a lot of recent videos on YouTube talking about Factory and it's unprecedented change with it having two 7th tier units, but a lot of them were saying that all towns are going to get two 7th tier units.

So I was wondering if I missed something and that was released recently and I missed it? Cause I was under the impression that only Factory was getting two 7th tier units, and the rest of the factions would be left as they are.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 03, 2020 09:44 PM

And you're right. Only Factory will have two tier7 units.
____________

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Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted September 03, 2020 10:36 PM

That's what I thought.

Thanks for answering.

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pizdabol
pizdabol


Hired Hero
posted September 04, 2020 05:33 AM
Edited by pizdabol at 05:37, 04 Sep 2020.

Is Aimed Shot using the same formula as Death Stare, only tuned down? Does anyone know the exact math?


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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 04, 2020 06:46 AM

From documentation:

Accurate shot. The ability is triggered after a shot: each creature in an attacking stack has a X% chance of killing a creature in the attacked squad, but the total number of killed creatures cannot be more than (number of creatures in an attacking squad) * X/100 (rounded up). X = 3 multiplier for shooting without penalty and X = 2 if shooting with penalty. Ability doesn’t work if shooting at creatures behind walls.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 04, 2020 01:50 PM

Doomforge said:
Not really sure if I'm looking forward to more nerfs. HotA team is certainly very capable, but they did some things I don't really agree with, like overnerfing Diplomacy to crap tier. I'm also not overly happy with nerfs to logistics, making the game even slower and (indirectly) buffing town portal, Castle and DD even more.

Also, why the kooky 5/10/20% distribution? What's wrong with 7/14/21%?


I'm agree with you. Someone thinks OP Kyrre, HotA nerfed. If someone still thinks something OP. HotA will nerfed them. Don't think OP.

Do you played H4? If H4 has a chance to nerf Pathfinding, what you think 25% or less?

But I downloaded 1.6.1, what Salamandre recommended. I haven't played yet.

Because difficult nerf. When creator has experience, theory and math vs mod, nerfed or rule. Example of Monopoly, I'm also OP. Guys created rule. I still won. Then guy asked me do have Monopoly balanced, what I think about wrong, what Monopoly should change into rule. Nope, Monopoly is complete, and your rule doesn't work with Monopoly, what I got more chance of winning, I said.

So you should win all MP or world champion. Then you can affect things.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Retro
Retro

Tavern Dweller
posted September 11, 2020 08:44 PM

Just started playing HotA after a long time away from HOMM3, one thing I'd really like is having the 'Esc' key bringing up the menu (like clicking the computer in the dashboard) rather than 'do you want to exit the game?'

It's really odd to have that these days, as most games go to a menu rather than exit with the Esc key. Even though I've played HOMM for years, muscle memory still thinks Esc = menu.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted September 13, 2020 04:00 PM

Just a small question: Is Troglodite immune to Mighty Gorgon's Death Stare? Regardless usefulness, I mean.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted September 13, 2020 04:45 PM

Trogs are only immune to blind and stone gaze.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted September 13, 2020 08:14 PM

Ah, ok, I wondered if in HotA it would be added to it, considering it's a blind unit and Stare was supposed to be the killing thing around a Gorgon by eye-contact, also thinking that it does not affect non-living units. Unless it's a scorching stare that kills things whatever they see it coming or not. ^_^
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2

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