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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2020 02:36 PM |
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Better don't mix up WoG with HotA units in a HotA thread, while balance wise posts should belong to the "wishlist thread" anyway...
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 09, 2020 02:54 PM |
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^
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 05:29 PM |
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Okay so you guys are perfectly fine with a level 3 unit killing 10+ of Azure Dragons or Archangels?!, okay then. 
It's not always possible to block them, if you try that, you will get slaugthered by the rest of the powerful Cove army.
By the way not everyone plays with that stupid creature meta, where Inferno runs around with 100 angels or Dungeon runs around with 100 giants.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 09, 2020 05:42 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Okay so you guys are perfectly fine with a level 3 unit killing 10+ of Azure Dragons or Archangels?!, okay then.
It's not always possible to block them, if you try that, you will get slaugthered by the rest of the powerful Cove army.
By the way not everyone plays with that stupid creature meta, where Inferno runs around with 100 angels or Dungeon runs around with 100 giants.
play on templates without creature banks like three kingdoms or where they arent core to the gameplay like diplo games and you get the same damn answer lol you won't see sea dogs in these kind of games' fb:s either
that is not a feasible situation in a normal game for which the balance is adjusted to, its just simply non realistic sorry  look for plausible situations instead of possible ones if you really want to give feedback, the design mentality from the hota crew is most probably broader and differs from these weird 1 in a lifetime situations. and yeah cove is not really that powerful lol the general consensus is that its below average at its best largely depending on the template in question
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 05:49 PM |
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There is no plausible or possible in this case. I have often had or faced 150+ Sea Dogs and seen how much havoc they can do.
Thank god I fixed the poor Gold Dragons and Black Dragons, cause when they get shot into oblivion, because of a very broken ability, at least you want to be able to resurrect them again.
Oh and by the way Cove is way above average in my experience.
Do I also need to mention their fast, flying crusaders or their level 7 tanky, level 6 units or Sea Withces that spams Weakness and permanent Disrupting Ray + they have the best war machine and some very good heroes.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 09, 2020 05:53 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
There is no plausible or possible in this case. I have often had or faced 150+ Sea Dogs and seen how much havoc they can do.
Thank god I fixed the poor Gold Dragons and Black Dragons, cause when they get shot into oblivion, because of a very broken ability, at least you want to be able to resurrect them again.
yeah you but the game is not solely designed after your experience, sorry to say it but its true if you fix the problems yourself anwyay, then why address them in the hota suggestions thread? the general experience of all players differs from just one
and the ability factually isnt broken loll if it was it'd be way more central in online play, it is balanced by its build order, cost, defences, ranged only etc theres lots of factors and lots of different templates where different rules apply
one way tactics/haste/aoe spells etc and different combinations of these counters them heavily as well in late game play so yaeh
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 06:00 PM |
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I see nothing balanced about a level 3 unit taking down Azure Dragons. The closest you get to that is Mighty Gorgons, but they are level 5, can not shoot and are slower than Sea Dogs.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 09, 2020 06:10 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I see nothing balanced about a level 3 unit taking down Azure Dragons. The closest you get to that is Mighty Gorgons, but they are level 5, can not shoot and are slower than Sea Dogs.
this discussion is pointless you might as well call familiars op since they are the only ones who can steal mana lol,, and cerberi get aoe damage and enough cerberi can kill more units in 1 strike than the sea dog stack with one attack how is that balanced????
the answer is that both balance and game design are far more complex subjects than you think the same balance viewpoint still applies, the general situations are far more important than the extremely niche ones, i've never seen sea dogs in a final battle where azure dragons are present
their design is to counter bigger units and you got to counter that yourself with good gameplay, which most people are able to do, hence they are very rare in final battles unless you have some anabel main player or something like someone found pirate boxes/multiple dwellings, and even in those cases almost no good player would deem them overpowered lol i swear
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 06:19 PM |
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Yeah I guess it's one of the agree to disagree situations, mainly because we play the game in very different ways.
I'm not saying my way is better, but neither is yours, they are just different.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 09, 2020 06:31 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I see nothing balanced about a level 3 unit taking down Azure Dragons. The closest you get to that is Mighty Gorgons, but they are level 5, can not shoot and are slower than Sea Dogs.
You're gonna have an army to take Azure Dragons down before you get Sea Dogs.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 09, 2020 06:32 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Yeah I guess it's one of the agree to disagree situations, mainly because we play the game in very different ways.
I'm not saying my way is better, but neither is yours, they are just different.
your feedback is drawn from own experience and our is drawn from general experience, i would say one is more relevant than the other if there is no basis behind the feedback other than niche situations the requested design in total will be cluttered and all over the place
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 09, 2020 06:41 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
I see nothing balanced about a level 3 unit taking down Azure Dragons.
Last time I checked, Azure Dragons are faster than Sea Dogs and the AI will target Sea Dogs as priority anyway.
phoenix4ever said:
By the way not everyone plays with that stupid creature meta, where Inferno runs around with 100 angels or Dungeon runs around with 100 giants.
Oh, quite the contrary. Everyone does exactly that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 07:18 PM |
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Doomforge said:
Oh, quite the contrary. Everyone does exactly that.
Well apparently not, I just told you I don't.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted November 09, 2020 07:52 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Doomforge said:
Oh, quite the contrary. Everyone does exactly that.
Well apparently not, I just told you I don't.
From a design perspective, what is the smartest target group to design for then? One or two people, or the thriving and growing community as a whole?
"""""""jc kebabers"""" are an integral part of the community and basically is, together with the actual hota crew/baratorch (etc) support and streamers, what makes the community grow then from there the meta might evolve considering other templates are also semi popular. balancing around the meta and the community in general will always be the superior path to take to make a healthy base game i feel
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 09, 2020 08:14 PM |
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And even without rich or bank farming templates, getting Sea Dogs is tough.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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ericoz
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 09, 2020 08:37 PM |
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Except the game is not balanced at all, and throwing in new content doesn't make up for it, quite the opposite.
While I'll concede Hota tried to adress some of them (Ivor nerf, Shakti nerf, slow nerf, logistics nerf, mysticism buff), most were left unchanged.
HOMM3 has many bad implemented concepts, such as good mass spells being low lv/mana and tied to a SS, eagle eye, learning, first aid and other useless SS, might heroes being able to learn all magic SS (which makes magic heroes useless since the better SS are all tied to might heroes)
You can check the stats on heroes-iii.com on how magic heroes are not viable, at least on a MP game.
Secondary skills, spells, heroes, units and some factions need to be balanced. But that would completely change the game and the way we are used to it. Probably not something everyone would agree, since this is a game most people play single player anyway.
All problems aside HOTA is great and the game is also great, even with all flaws.
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2020 09:08 PM |
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@phoenix
To my knowledge you're still mostly playing your own map against AI, am I right?
How do you expect them to balance the game for that purpose?
First of all, balance changes should never be done for any custom (player created) maps in mind, as the results in those maps will only give us a rought estimate of each town's/creatures/objects power level. That's why some players keep mentioning random maps and different templates, as by playing in these randomly created situations, we learn how valueable each town/creature/object is in different time during the game - what's worth going after asap, and what you can freely skip.
Secondly, the game cannot be balanced for single play alone, as two human being are always needed to tell something about balance. This is because while AI in Homm3 can still be exiting to play against, the human player is simply the superior one when you know what to do. AI simply cannot match the effectiveness of spending all the available resources.
phoenix4ever said:
Yeah I guess it's one of the agree to disagree situations, mainly because we play the game in very different ways.
I'm not saying my way is better, but neither is yours, they are just different.
IMO it would be 100% stupid to tell someone there's only one real way of playing the game, you're completely free to keep playing as you wish, never change that, as the games in general are meant for having fun.
However, just like in all games, there are more effective ways of playing this game as well. When we were kids, we though there were no strategy like capitol rush (I didn't know the name back then,ofc) and the Fortress was clearly the worst town, and necro was bad,
because how were you supposed to get going if you don't have access to an early shooter? We clearly didn't know the best strategies or I doubt we could even have been able to play like that lol.
However, the meta is simply the best strategy available, you can deny playing it, but that will always be ineffective, as it's not the most optimal way of playing. And if we're playing in an unoptimal way, there's no way of balancing the game accordingly.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 09, 2020 10:14 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Well apparently not, I just told you I don't.
You have to understand that single player users aren't really taken into consideration 
What really matters to all devs is always the multiplayer meta.
You're welcome to "play as you like" there, but you will constantly lose until you adapt.. or quit.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 09, 2020 10:33 PM |
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Okay guys maybe you just have to understand that not every map is a template and also every map or template does not have 500+ stupid creature banks.
My map has very, very few of them and I am perfectly happy with that.
I never liked that stupid creature bank meta.
Besides I already told you I did'nt feel like discussing it anymore as I apparently play a very different game than most of you.
So let us just leave it at that.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 09, 2020 11:14 PM |
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Yeah, I'm not a bug fan of those either, personally. Although even on regular maps, Sea Dogs are still tough to get exactly because you don't have enough resources. And again, you'd have an army big enough to kill an Azure Dragon on a regular map quicker than getting enough Sea Dogs to kill them.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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