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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 18, 2021 01:47 PM |
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No interesting! If you've never played against 7 AIs in random map in impossible level. Losing and hard game is more interesting. No one mapmaker creates to victory himself/herself. Because it does too easy to us. Hm mapmaker loses the game? Send a map, we interest it. Why? We have a GM, elite and impossible freak players.
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 19, 2021 08:54 AM |
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P4R4D0X0N said:
Nope, thats the point of "balance" in the first place. I like to have 9 favorite towns coz every single one has it's purpose and unique gameplay while being equally to other towns.
I used to be a big advocate of "balance" when I was younger, but nowadays, I consider it to be a somewhat of an utopia.
There's not a single truly balanced game out there, and making game mechanics favor balance creates bland games like H6.
What you really want to remove is obvious and gamebreaking things that 100% define the game and soup up previously useless things, that's all.
At this point all they need to do, pretty much, is to maybe fix some useless spells and skills and that's it, we don't need anything else.
There will always be a best town, best strategy, etc. as long as it doesn't stand out THAT much, it's okay.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 19, 2021 04:17 PM |
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That nice part about heroes is all the different variables that add to a faction’s strengths and weaknesses. The power levels of factions are supposed to be all over the place. A weaker faction can have cheap building and unit costs. The strongest faction can easily fall behind due to expensive units. Stronghold and Fortress’s week one behemoths and wyverns is something you don’t see in heroes 4, 5 & 7 because of the bland, but arguably more balanced, building restrictions. Heroes 6 actually had a lot more freedom when choosing what to build.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 19, 2021 04:53 PM |
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re oomforge
The idea of 'balance' should occur at the player/faction level; not that every hero starts equal, is equal, or each monster at every level, such that something can be left to chance, and the rest -the choices the player takes- makes for a fun game.
Any similarities to the real-world are purely coincidental.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 19, 2021 11:56 PM |
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Ah, don't forget that if all paths the player is offered are equal, they may as well not exist because it doesn't matter what you choose anymore. Quite of a paradox but that would essentially be what would occur if all skills were actually of equal use.
What you don't want however are paths that are 100% useless, or 100% game defining. Those should be tweaked until they are not a total waste/a must have under every circumstance.
For instance, learning is something that is a 100% waste of time and thus it would be best if it was changed.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 02:24 AM |
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^
Yes, kinda like a rubber band ball visualised.
On paradoxes, is it possible to enjoy a game you set the rules for?
Since you know the beginning, and the different 'paths' that can be taken.. Such is life. (only challenge has meaning)
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nitocris
Hired Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 04:25 AM |
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No release till 2022, yikesy
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 20, 2021 04:47 AM |
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HOMM3: Wait of the Abyss
I do think striving towards balance is a noble goal and can be done without making the game bland.
I would rather have Fortress having more use in late game and a better mage guild than just existing to "rush wyvern"
(which suck in the long run anyways)
and I LIKE fortress, that's why it's so painful it's a weak magic town that's also slow units, and has no castle special buildings ("+1 defense" isn't special), AND has a single terrible level 2 archer without AOE. The only thing worth it is the ambience, nice music and interesting creatures, but really , shoudn't be like that.
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 20, 2021 08:06 AM |
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@Nimo
I also love Fortress, but they do feel like an underdog, maybe not as much as Inferno, but pretty low tier.
A Mage Guild 4 would be great for Fortress, especially since Witches are so magic oriented. A bit more defense and/or hp for Wyvern Monarchs would'nt hurt either.
At least the Armorer bug is fixed in HotA, Beastmasters can be happy about that.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 20, 2021 09:41 AM |
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A way to buff fortress that would be appropiate for Wyvern Monarchs (keeping regular wyverns "fast built" as is) is augmenting the Poison chance to 100%, since it takes several turns in having effect anyways (it doesn't begin to affect anything until it's that creature's turn again, to begin with).
If possible, I would also like adding some special effect to Blood Obelisk and Glyphs of Fear. Doesn't matter if they are made more expensive.
Maybe it could cast randomly the Fear spell on enemies during defense: I mean, it's in the name
http://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Fear_(spell)
https://heroes.thelazy.net//index.php/Azure_Dragon#Fear%20special%20ability
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Never changing = never improving
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 20, 2021 09:51 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Maybe it could cast randomly the Fear spell on enemies during defense: I mean, it's in the name
That would be pretty cool. 
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 09:56 AM |
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nitocris said:
No release till 2022, yikesy
Has there been additional info I've missed? There were some talking at the beginning of year of Factory being released at Q4 on 2021 or Q1 on 2022.
NimoStar said:
I do think striving towards balance is a noble goal and can be done without making the game bland.
Well, there's the problem of only very few would completely agree with all the changes.
I don't see why town "balance" should be pushed any further. The amount of different setups (maps, map sizes, player amount, VS AI, VS human, campaign, etc) is so massive that all cannot simply be balanced. As long as one town isn't completely overpowered and it is possible to somewhat consistently win with every town, I say there's no real reason of balancing.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 10:06 AM |
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Fortress is a solid town guys. It's not Necropolis but it's perfectly playable in bank meta.
Refer to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRdl_QabpTE
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 10:10 AM |
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Doomforge said:
I used to be a big advocate of "balance" when I was younger, but nowadays, I consider it to be a somewhat of an utopia.
There's not a single truly balanced game out there, and making game mechanics favor balance creates bland games like H6.
What you really want to remove is obvious and gamebreaking things that 100% define the game and soup up previously useless things, that's all.
[...]
Depends on your point of view. Kinda all MOBA games and realtime strategic games like starcraft are more or less balanced. In case of HotA you can notice that a lot towns aren't played at all since they a bad in early game so that's an issue here. same as the early push/rush/conquer strategy in the first place. Inferno is such a town, Imps are near to useless just cannonfodder to raise demons later. Gogs are overall too weak so the first useful unit is the hellhound, demons aswell even if both are kinda defensive. That way you don't really have units for the first few days... Also an issue... the town is too expensive and fire spells that town is alinged to are too weak, while the heroes aren't the best either.
The_Green_Drag said:
That nice part about heroes is all the different variables that add to a faction’s strengths and weaknesses. The power levels of factions are supposed to be all over the place. A weaker faction can have cheap building and unit costs. The strongest faction can easily fall behind due to expensive units. Stronghold and Fortress’s week one behemoths and wyverns is something you don’t see in heroes 4, 5 & 7 because of the bland, but arguably more balanced, building restrictions. Heroes 6 actually had a lot more freedom when choosing what to build.
Thats a noble wish imho. Infact its like I stated before that the only point of being in line with the most played towns is the push/rush/conquer strategy early game. Nothing wrong with strenghts and weaknesses but in case of Fortress you may ask whats useful to be best in defending a town when you lack offensive potential? Same goes for towns that a strong late game and expensive towns. It's not about the personal tactics or the gameplay itself why a town is picked in the end. It's the heroes and early game roam that decide about success and winning a map vs other players. You can visualize it as an exponential curve, the better and faster early game the more options/power mid and endgame. Note: "Creature Banks"
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 10:26 AM |
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Starcraft is more like a rock-paper-scissors game. That system can work quite well, but the critical difference is that in Starcraft, you can see what your opponent is doing (unless you refuse to scout of course) and you can react to it. In a HOMM game, you will likely see your opponent at the game defining single fight of your mains - if you're playing popular online setups like JC with the 1 hero rule, that is. So obviously you can't add any rock-paper-scissiors kind of mechanics because it would be a guessing game.
Gogs may be weak but Magogs are quite dope when you can aim their fireballs. That's like effortless x2 damage, or even more. Quite a significant buff.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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P4R4D0X0N
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 10:44 AM |
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Doomforge said:
Gogs may be weak but Magogs are quite dope when you can aim their fireballs. That's like effortless x2 damage, or even more. Quite a significant buff.
Maybe, but the rest of the town is just underperforming early game and thats my point here (again), why the town itself is near to useless vs other players. Since there just is the common "hero chain tactics"... (wouldn't count 1 hero rule representative anyway since its too restrictive to be called "BALANCE")
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted May 20, 2021 10:52 AM |
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Doomforge said:
Fortress is a solid town guys. It's not Necropolis but it's perfectly playable in bank meta.
What if there are no banks, though?...
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted May 20, 2021 11:31 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 11:33, 20 May 2021.
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Bank meta is bad and you should feel bad :V
Plus what I said is not only about "balanced"#, it's about having some special, which it doesnt.
"+2atk/+2def when sieged" doesn't count. It's suppossed to make them better at defense castle... but they are even bad at this, because they have basically no archers.
Enemy can kill you at range.
So defend by taking your creatures outside the walls, which is worse than open air combat because of the door? ho ho ho.
So, I woudn't even say fortress is good at town defense. Quite the contrary probably.
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Never changing = never improving
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 12:37 PM |
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Fortress is a decent town. It isn't the best, but it isn't the worst:
1) Beastmasters are arguably one the best hero classes in the game, they have very good chances at grabbing Earth and Logistics, while having Armorer right away.
2) Tazar is an easy top 5 hero of the game, but there are other heroes such as Alkin who are also amazing.
3) Most terrifying lvl 5 creature.
4) Fastest scouts
5) Double moat when defending the town.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 20, 2021 12:48 PM |
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These “balance” changes to fortress would just kill its uniqueness. It’s supposed to be a slow moving defensive town that is harder to play. You can hardly ever just sit back and not think about every move with them like you can when you play castle.
Fortress remains the most unique town in the series. This faction uniqueness died when ubi took over. H5-7 have factions that all feel similar with their boring line ups always relying on 2 or more shooters, unless it’s necropolis is. That is the rule for three games now aaand that rule is crap.
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