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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted November 28, 2021 03:44 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 15:47, 28 Nov 2021.
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Salamandre said:
Maybe not in the spirit of H3 game, but just based on the common sense, aesthetic and technical skills of a team who hit the nail at a precise moment. Hota team knew what people wanted, companies are looking for such people.
Their aesthetic and technical skills won't be undermined by teaching how to mod H3.
Also, one thing is just "we don't have time for this", but HotA team goes beyond by allegedly "forbidding" others to mod their mod as if it were a legitimate commercial enterprise.
I mean, that is against the very spirit of modding. I always ancouraged people to mod my own mods and to create their own, instead of discouraging it as though I was making something official.
Contrast with WoG/ERA that is happy to be a teachiong platform and also a launching point for *countless* other modifications, or with VCMI that not only is ready for new content, but also whole process is open and transparent.
I think any company would prefer a VCMI developer that coded everrything from scratch in public view, that some hacker black magic that nobody can systematize.
Being a modder that wants to obstruct modding for everyone else is quite the paradox, don't you think?
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Never changing = never improving
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 28, 2021 04:06 PM |
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Quote:
Their aesthetic and technical skills won't be undermined by teaching how to mod H3.
Well, yes, as long as a mod that would surpass it wouldn't come. And then people would also make such mods compatible with HotA's contents and their team really doesn't seem to like the idea of people playing HotA with anything else, even removing certain customizations like plugins, as mentioned before (I know there's HotA for VCMI, but I'm pretty sure they allowed people to loosely port it because nobody plays VCMI anyway). And they probably wouldn't like people playing HotA together with a mod containing creatures ripped from Warcraft and other games either. So it's pretty easy to see why they don't do it.
As for the spirit of modding and whatnot, it is somewhat related to my previous point: they don't seem to think of it as modding the game, their philosophy might revolve more around proper unofficial expansion (and to be fair, that's also an improper definition for many reasons, including the factions themselves; where are the wererats, the sea turtles, the Vori elves etc.? Yes, based on MM roster and NWC's design philosophy, these would have been the most obvious choices for another NWC expansion, and I'm not talking out of my ass; I know, some of you do say "but well, it works either way for us, it's still good", but that doesn't mean it fits the "definition" given before).
Quote:
I think any company would prefer a VCMI developer that coded everrything from scratch in public view, that some hacker black magic that nobody can systematize.
Well, yes, they won't have to pay for anything then, so cost-profit is much better. 
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 28, 2021 04:23 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Being a modder that wants to obstruct modding for everyone else is quite the paradox, don't you think?
they're not obstructing modding, though. they're just better at it. by your own words, there are other platforms for modding.
so what's the problem?
if the HotA team were to make an easy-to-use modding platform, with all the tools you need to mod anything you want in the game, don't you think that would render other modding platforms and their work meaningless?
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 28, 2021 04:38 PM |
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Well, they're obstructing the modding of their own mod and the such.... So the problem here is some people bothered by HotA's choices (which again, I admit am one of them too, but only when it comes to plugins mainly, modding/customization-obstruction-wise).
Indeed, to a good extent, all other platforms would become meaningless if such a perfect platform (or the perfection of one of them) would arise, but that'd be better in the long run: people would port/fix anything they're interested in playing, and have a game with fewer to no bugs, better compatibilities etc. and many more features. I know some of you will say it's an actually impossible dream, but from what I gathered, it's definitely easier than some people make it to be.
As for them being better, that also has to do with mentality: I see plenty of people, even determined ones and those who have potential, limiting themselves. Once you break through such a mentality, H3 is truly at your own feet, at least in your area of expertise. Speaking from experience.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 28, 2021 05:17 PM |
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fred79 said:
NimoStar said:
Being a modder that wants to obstruct modding for everyone else is quite the paradox, don't you think?
they're not obstructing modding, though. they're just better at it. by your own words, there are other platforms for modding.
so what's the problem?
if the HotA team were to make an easy-to-use modding platform, with all the tools you need to mod anything you want in the game, don't you think that would render other modding platforms and their work meaningless?
They want HotA tools and techniques because they think it's superior to other methods. and they want it... well,
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 28, 2021 05:41 PM |
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i don't play HotA, but i use it's available resources. if someone wants to play a platform that doesn't make modification easier, that's their problem. there are alternate options that allow modification. so, use them. duh. it's not like you can't run them all in seperate folder installs, either. if you want to have your cake and eat it too, learn what the HotA team learned.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted November 28, 2021 06:03 PM |
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why learn, when you can waste your time just sperging about wanting to learn?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 28, 2021 06:36 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Being a modder that wants to obstruct modding for everyone else is quite the paradox, don't you think?
I don't think so, if techniques and level of skill are way different.
By "obstruct" you mean the usage of their resources, right? Because they do not obstruct any modder from creating whatever he wants, just not with Hota assets.
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VMaiko
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 05:59 AM |
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The clarification once and for all
Even if they release their code for public use it's useless, even if you know coding it will also be useless to modify HotA, we could end this topic in that HotA will never be open to big modifications because its code will not support it. You will never see a WoG in HotA because it's impossible, both use cores as conflicting as water and oil. HotA VCMI is just a set of raw files that emulate how the original HotA is supposed to be, it's not the same, even it still generates big conflicts with other mods.
HotA is difficult to develop and maintain its quality, do you think it is easy to develop it? If that were the case, the team wouldn't take years to release major updates, they could seem extremely special modders, but their talents and ideas aren't so different from ours, they aren't great geniuses, they're human like us too, they're only creators who have put their effort into doing something other enthusiasts have never done, and that is modifying the original game executable to create something new and easy to play, so don't overrate them. You probably think their ideas are fascinating and expand the game like no other, but we aren't left behind with ideas. The mod that I'm developing "Third Upgrades Mod", is massive, I collect the best of modding content and with other new contents created by me, I made something that covers even more content than HotA, my mod could be better than now , but in my team there are only ERM scripters, a moderately professional coder and the help of 3D artists is rarely needed to create something specific and necessary (because in my mod I don't have artists completely willing to help and I have to resort to using public assets of not so good quality), imagine if TUM were developed by a specialized team like HotA for ERA, what would be the result? The key is to have a good team to develop something of equivalent quality to HotA, so do not despair of wanting to own HotA because it will never be possible.
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evilcherry
Hired Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 11:43 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Do you give your home for free? Sign me in!
FirePaladin said:
Good point. 
What's next, sharing underwear with 100 other people and living in a house that's not yours, with a PC that is rented for 7 days and a wife that's not yours?
You're both so dishonest it's ridiculous.
You just pretend to be blind, or analphabetic maybe, while it is obvious to everyone that i was speaking only about technology-related private property like patents and scientific articles.
Grow up. It is obvious that i'm not offering my house or wife to anyone.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 12:18 PM |
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can i have the password for your hc account, please? 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 29, 2021 12:59 PM |
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evilcherry said:
i was speaking only about technology-related private property like patents and scientific articles.
Grow up.
That's the problem with millennials nowadays, they just don't realize how technology and science work so they want them for free. It is not different from acquiring a house, both are about time, work and money invested in, otherwise you won't have anything done. So to tell people who recalls you reality to "grow up" is comical.
What about you offer for free your several years hard work, then and only then start to challenge the "ethics" of others. Until now, all your effort you shared was typing with your fingers a few worthless comments.
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planetavril
Famous Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 02:15 PM |
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Evilcherry,all this spam leads nowhere
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evilcherry
Hired Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 04:05 PM |
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Salamandre said:
What about you offer for free your several years hard work
That's what i did during my whole life, for every single piece of knowledge or software that i create.
fred79 said:
can i have the password for your hc account, please?
Again, this is not a patent, it is my private life.
By taking my house or wife or hc account you kind of become me, which is unacceptable.
By reading my patents and other engineers' patents to create your own new product, you never pretend to be me.
planetavril said:
Evilcherry,all this spam leads nowhere
How is this spam ?
I have a constructive discussion with reasoning and arguments.
I never repeated the same comment twice.
I never published several comments in a row without waiting for an answer from someone else.
This does not correspond to any of the criteria of spam.
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Undeadgamer62
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2021 10:38 PM |
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I don't see the way the HOTA developers handle their material as being an ethical problem at all. I think it's more a question of aesthetic differences. They want to create a single mod based on a common philosophy and with certain limits (like keeping changes within their conception of what the original game might have been like had further official expansions occurred). Since they are the ones doing the work, they are entitled to make the creative decisions. Those who agree with those decisions will play HOTA. Those who don't will probably play ERA-WOG. The existence of HOTA doesn't in any way impinge on anyone's ability to mod on or play on other platforms.
The idea that modders should make all of their assets available to anyone else who wants to use them is certainly an open and supportive way to do business, and it seems to be shared by most of the ERA folks, who have evolved a lot more flexible collaboration and a much wider range of choices available to players. But it is not either legally or ethically required that someone work that way.
Game modding is an interesting area in that the rights holders often allow it to occur (on the sensible basis that it increases the replay value and hence marketability of their product) without really authorizing it. (Technically, at least under US Copyright law, derivative works need to be licensed by the original rights holder to have any standing under the law.) But if a derivative work is licensed by the rights holder, the creators of the derivative work have copyright protection for the parts that they create themselves. The HOTA developers aren't claiming copyright protection, but their general position is the same as what licensed creators would take under the law--they reserve the right to make decisions about what they have created. Again, there's nothing wrong with that position.
Personally, I like the feel of ERA better for a variety of reasons, but I'm not going to tell the HOTA folks that they ought to do things the same way. They're doing the work, so they're entitled to make the decisions.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2021 12:52 PM |
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Salamandre said:
That's the problem with millennials nowadays, they just don't realize how technology and science work so they want them for free. It is not different from acquiring a house, both are about time, work and money invested in, otherwise you won't have anything done. So to tell people who recalls you reality to "grow up" is comical.
What about you offer for free your several years hard work, then and only then start to challenge the "ethics" of others. Until now, all your effort you shared was typing with your fingers a few worthless comments.
I don't care too much for how the HotA guys handle this but there are things like Free/Open Source software and copyleft licences. You might have heard of the GNU GPL or CC-BY-SA for content (Wikimedia for instance).
There are companies like Red Hat, Canonical, SUSE, Purism or even giants like Google and Amazon which make billions of dollars out of Free/Open Source software and/or refrain from filing patents.
It is this very copyleft licence why competing companies contribute to the Linux kernel which is used in billions of devices (mobile phones, servers, vehicles, routers, ...,basically anything which needs an OS).
So this is definitely how technology can work.
As for science, there is science funded by public money the results of which are published openly (unless it is relevent for "national security) and in-company research.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted November 30, 2021 09:28 PM |
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Quote:
They want HotA tools and techniques because they think it's superior to other methods. and they want it... well,
I explicitely said they are inferior to other methods, though.
Its quite likely that due to this the new faction will never get released.
Its exactly the same that happened with equilibris 3.55, another Russian team that never published their knowledge and methods, not even in their own forums.
At the end, this way of working is not only perjudicial to non-hota projects - it's against the very hota itself as well.
Which was how I started the whole point.
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Never changing = never improving
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 30, 2021 10:03 PM |
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I don't recommend they tell and give. Think about many heroes version. And they didn't break a copyright. I can tell you, one deepfake, he sold deepfake, and got a accusation, when his one foul was unblurred. Depends on their law. The best is transfer to WoG/ERA. And Wog team continues to work. If they agreed that no copy something example of Nixes, objects. Then no contest, then their tournament, maybe newer version, etc and WoG/ERA for bug, new objects, fixing Lord of Thunder, etc for example. IMO
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 01, 2021 06:14 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:31, 01 Dec 2021.
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Yeah, I'm sure they will come here and say "because someone complained in an english forum we haven't read in years, all those hundreds of hours already invested are cancelled." Seems likely, yes?   (too bad we don't have an eyeroll emoji)
PD: The guy deleted the post saying that they will not release due to our comments, lol
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Never changing = never improving
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 01, 2021 06:21 PM |
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Eh, I believe this will not share Equlibris' fate, for once HOTA is already way bigger and recognized a lot more (Equlibris was mostly just a rebalance, HOTA added new campaigns and content) so it's not some obscure hex edit made in a nerd's basement, also I think the team mentioned they really wanted to honor Docent Picolan by releasing Factory (along with music made by Romero himself).
It will probably just take a lot more time. 2023 maybe?
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