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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features
Thread: [Official Thread] HoMM 3: Horn of the Abyss - Announcements, Questions, Features This Super Thread is 548 pages long: 1 ... 69 70 71 72 73 ... 140 210 280 350 420 490 548 · «PREV / NEXT»
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted July 17, 2014 11:06 PM

Weak? No, I don't think Necromancers (and Death Knights) are weak.

And how they would make Barbarian/etc weak if they don't have 'racial' skill like Necropolis heroes?

You are just out of your mind
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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted July 17, 2014 11:11 PM

Necromancy is obviously an overpowered skill, and tweaking it is one of the brightest decisions ever made in HotA. If you think otherwise - you didn't play enough multiplayer games.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted July 17, 2014 11:16 PM

Hell, even singleplayer games could be enough to see how powerful it is xD

And in the rare case Necropolis ended being underpowered in competitive play with HotA settings, they could always give minor buffs to Necro units to put them up with other towns. I doubt it will be needed though
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted July 17, 2014 11:34 PM

The argument "you did not play enough" is curious. I must recall to the wise and experienced audience () that when played without rules, necro is not so invincible as it looks to be. It was never banned in ToH for 4 full seasons, yet no one complained to play against, even on XL maps.

Due to necessary micromanagement, necro is slow, defeating shooters with it in first two weeks is painful, and unless he invests in developing other towns, he is one of the easiest target to hit&run. Also the heroes stats and skill are rather bad.

Not to mention that if map is smaller than large, necro is doomed. Thus any changes/tweaks are going -at least in several situations- weaken him beyond the acceptable limit.

Is not so easy to balance Heroes.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted July 17, 2014 11:58 PM

Sal said:
Not to mention that if map is smaller than large, necro is doomed. Thus any changes/tweaks are going -at least in several situations- weaken him beyond the acceptable limit.

But not every faction is meant to be equally powerful on any map size, are they?

Just like in H2 some towns were stronger in smaller-medium sized maps while others shined in big maps.
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 02:35 AM

Sure, game may be always unpredictable, there are many elements influencing one or other of factions.

I was just answering to this:

Quote:
Necromancy is obviously an overpowered skill


It is not so obvious. Map must match precise factors to create optimal environment for necro. Tons of level 1, not shooters in starting area, get the right artifacts against hit&run, find the right town to build for leading at speed, opponent (if good) at least at 3 weeks from attacking you. A necro will not survive early skirmish.

Here is an interesting story from a game between Frank and someone else (when Frank was top 1-3 in toh during 5 seasons). As you see, Frank was necro but he did not win because necro advantage, and even was in dangerous situation until he found a way:







This is to relate the story of a game I took part in.  Hopefully I will change your overall opinion on the hit & run matter.   The map is boomerang.  I’m red my opponent is blue.  I let him chose his starting castle - he takes castle, I stay on random - I get necro.

The game goes well for me, I take the neutral castle during week 2.  From then my idea was to attack him before week 3 starts.  But my taverns (2) revealed to me something frightening : my opponent has huge primary stats (he had gotten the sword of judgment in a floatsman...).  So here I am standing with my skeletons with a main without logistic against Pyre with the Stable (Castle), Archangels (my opponent plays first), he got chain lightning, with very powerful stats: his easily obtained 15 att 12 def 12 sp 11 kno against my hardly obtained 13 att 7 def 8 sp 7 kno.

Do you recognize this situation?  IT'S THE PERFECT HIT & RUN SITUATION!!!!   Only I’m on the wrong side of the equation...

So what do I do?  Do I complain?  Do I say it’s not fair?  Do I trash talk about my opponent’s unfair tactic in zone?  NO !

Sure enough this isn’t looking good for me as my opponent execute the hit and run tactic perfectly.  The first fight he destroyed 1/4 of my skeletons.  He’s very fast: pyre takes 2 turns before I sustain yet another hit and run.  I can’t abandoned my Rampart castle (+ 2000 gold/day and possibly gold dragons eventually).  I have 2 options.  One good and one not so promising.  I can go with all my army towards his main castle and sustain hit and run a number (x) of times or I can stay in my rampart castle and let him come to me.  The 2nd option is the good one.   Here is why:

Pyre’s primary stats aren’t going to increase for nothing is left to do on his side.  My stats won’t increase either but what I have going for myself is the gold income.  I have a 2nd castle giving me an extra 2000 gold/day.  Hopefully Pyre doesn’t have diplomacy (she doesn’t),  so surrendering and rehiring Pyre cost 5375 gold.  So while I can still buy all my troops each week, my opponent can barely finance his good hit and run tactic.  Is that coming clear to you now?   We are at the 3rd week.  I already have the troops advantage (hit points wise).  That advantage will grow.  The more I’m being patient the more my opponent’s chances decrease.   His mana will stay at 110 and his sp at 12 while my troops number never cease to grow !!

Here is what I did to minimize the damage of his hit and run:

Whenever Pyre was in reach with 1 archangel I attacked her with 5 battle dwarfs, 2 unicorns and ammo cart, ballista and tent (I bought those as I needed them).  My opponent hit and run me for 1 week until he realized that he wasn’t going anywhere with his tactic.

What if he brings all his troops?  The problem with chain lightning is that you can do it one time only in an open fight.  So if he tries to go for my main castle I attack him and he loses (I got meteor shower meanwhile with expert intelligence and the fountain nearby = 320 mana pts !).   If he attacks me in my castle he can do something very evil: park his one unit in front of my door and chain lightning all my none flying units to death (I can’t get out of my castle if he does that until his catapult breaches my wall…).   But I have expert tactic, hehe… (so I can place my none flying troops outside of my castle from the very beginning.).

So there you have it.  The perfect hit and run tactic doesn’t work.


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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 03:09 PM

Macron1 said:
Orzie said:
Necromancy is tweaked just right, Macron. How many multiplayer games did you play?

I didn't counted them.
It's just killing game. OK. Will make necromancers weak. Then go make barbarians weak. Then all will be weak, and multiplayer will turn to snow.
Life here is ruled by certainity. Even if you get "weak" faction, like Fortress, you can already hire hero of other faction and win. That's a game called HMM3.


Could you please play at least one game with decent competitive player and win it? Then (after years of researching and training) you can return here and we will talk about all your failures in understading this rather complicated game. Right now it's like explaining the beauty of rainbow to a blind person.

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 03:15 PM
Edited by nik312 at 15:16, 18 Jul 2014.

Sal said:
The argument "you did not play enough" is curious. I must recall to the wise and experienced audience () that when played without rules, necro is not so invincible as it looks to be. It was never banned in ToH for 4 full seasons, yet no one complained to play against, even on XL maps.

Due to necessary micromanagement, necro is slow, defeating shooters with it in first two weeks is painful, and unless he invests in developing other towns, he is one of the easiest target to hit&run. Also the heroes stats and skill are rather bad.

Not to mention that if map is smaller than large, necro is doomed. Thus any changes/tweaks are going -at least in several situations- weaken him beyond the acceptable limit.

Is not so easy to balance Heroes.


Well, average multiplayer skill did raise for quite a long time. And champions of ToH in its first years would be considered rather as average players nowadays

It is w/o any limitations indeed when necro is completely unstoppable and invincible (that's why it is a town with maximal limitations by HW rules). First week is easily carried at highest tempo by Galthran, then you get vampire lords, which can solo half of the map with a single outer dwell or a native town. At the beginning-middle of 3rd week w/o rules avg necro has about 1k+ skeletons (even on L map, not even XL) and ready to kill Utopias 1 by 1 or just rush down his opponent with mass angels-wywerns and stats/spells from pandoras.

On a maps smaller than large it is mainly vampire-lords, that make the whole game as the game is faster overall

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 03:18 PM

Storm-Giant said:
So nik, ehhh...can you  confirm/deny this?

Quote:
Directly in the next version it is expected that two new banks of creatures will appear. First one will give cyclops after battle against wolf riders, and the second will give giants after battle against iron golems.
More things to be announced later...

Source


No comments for now.

P.S. Someone is going to get hurt today... Badly...

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 18, 2014 03:54 PM

so, either somebody leaked info, or is putting out untruths. either way, happy hunting, nik.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 18, 2014 03:57 PM

I dont understand why the forum moderators tolerate such aggressive language against macron. He only expresses his opinions, yet he gets bashed in every thread he s posting.

Hm, maybe because nik is speaking in the name of hota team and this status is shieling him.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 18, 2014 04:01 PM

no, it's because macron tends to be overly critical of people's projects. he draws the negative attention himself.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 04:16 PM

nik312 said:

And champions of ToH in its first years would be considered rather as average players nowadays


Entirely subjective opinion, you don't know how they played. In my (also) subjective opinion, the new generation of players who play like whirligigs same and same templates thousand times, using thousand rules to cover their inexperience, are in no way more creative or experienced. I watched their videos, nothing entertaining, just humdrum jobs.

Of course necro needs tweaking if the map is closed, if players can't meet before third week, and if treasure zones with tons of utopias are between. Many things need changes with such maps.

This being said, it is great that someone with such programming skills as Hota team still worries about Heroes 3 balance and tries to do something good.  

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 05:05 PM

Dj said:
I dont understand why the forum moderators tolerate such aggressive language against macron. He only expresses his opinions, yet he gets bashed in every thread he s posting.

Hm, maybe because nik is speaking in the name of hota team and this status is shieling him.


Ok, it seems, that not everyone knows, who is this

That is old russian (afaik) troll that has a loooong history of trolling hota on a bunch of forums because of some personal reasons. Here are a few facts about him, that I know:

1) He never really played HotA (he admitted it right in this thread somewhat earlier) or tried to understand its purpose. So, he doesn't really know, what this project is about.

2) He is total newbie in multiplayer (that's not a crime - most of people are), but he likes to talk in a way like he is an expert in it, even though he had probably been shown previously that it is wrong (that is also a commmon thing, but already seems like a crime to me). Btw, by "newbie" I don't mean to troll him. It means just what it means - he is not familiar with effective game, that shows the way for  modern multiplayer community, so he can't really understand much in this field - that is obvious from his posts. I think hippox89, for example, knows enough to confirm it

3) He uses all kinds of manipulating and misleading to try and ruin the project's good (I hope) reputation.

That starts with direct misinforming. From what I've seen lately - "HotA crew are not able to do this" (when it is obvious for anyone familiar with the project, that we are), "There is no such thing in HotA" (when there is), "HOTA will not do this!" (not because he knows the direction of the project, but because he can say it and somebody will believe it. Jesus, somebody may even believe that he is an offical representative of the team), "HotA is all buggy and not playable" (not sure when, but pretty sure that I've seen smth like this... no comments, in combination with first point... brilliant ) and so on.

It continues with lame advertising. "Here, HotA can't do this, but VCMI can!", "Here, HotA will not do it, but VCMI already did", "Hey guys, HotA is dull, VCMI is future of heroes!". Honestly, at first, I started to identify that guy with VCMI itself with corresponding attitude. Gladly, soon I've checked out their topic and found out that it is rather interesting, young project with quite a brave goal (rewriting the whole game from scratch... Idk if they manage to do it, but everything is possible with some power of reverse-engineering). That project's face certainly does not deserve to be spoiled by such a guy.

And of course - petty nags. What loyal troll can live without those? HotA is a rather hard project to do it, because of team's maniacal attitude to quality, but he still tries to gloat over every glitch or crash that our users kindly help us to find (not finding anything by himself of course - read point 1).


So, yep. I wasn't much against him when I first came here, but with more and more time passing by, I realised that he is not a mislead user or anything, but just a fat troll. So, we are ignoring him for quite some time, wishing you the same

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 05:18 PM

Make that post sticked please!

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 05:38 PM
Edited by nik312 at 17:46, 18 Jul 2014.

Sal said:
nik312 said:

And champions of ToH in its first years would be considered rather as average players nowadays


Entirely subjective opinion, you don't know how they played.



I can tell it by your words and I know a guy, who was a champion of ToH once... He is not bad, but not good either

Quote:
play like whirligigs same and same templates thousand times, using thousand rules to cover their inexperience, are in no way more creative or experienced. I watched their videos, nothing entertaining, just humdrum jobs.


To understand why modern multiplayer all came to current monopoly of certain rules and templates one must research how went the evolution of players in heroes 3. I think I can tell a lot about it - heard a lot, seen some (in russian communities mostly, but AFAICT they were always the biggest, not counting the Chinese. And as a matter of fact the only strong highly active community right now is HeroesWorld, which is russian). I can't tell the whole evolution step by step (didn't see it all, though tried to recreate it from stories told), but I think I know why HW still lives and others do not.

It's (among some other reasons) the attitude to the tourney rules and deep understanding why (and how) those should be treated. The goal of HW rules is to allow you using as much of game possibilites as possible whatever amount of words it takes to describe actual rule for that.
Surely, there are some simple ones - you can't play with Diplomacy or Cloak of Undead King as it ruins the whole strategical strength of the game. You take it - unless your opponent finds it as well - you win. Not much brain involved.
But some are more complicated. Yes, necromancers are impossibly strong but what are the key elements of that strength? How we can fix those in an elegant way so that you can still play the town? Surely, they could not change the game as HotA crew can, so they had to be more strict. They've eventually (over years) found 3 major imbalances with necromancers: Necromancy, Lord-vamps, Galthan. So... Imba of 3rd+ week, imba of 2nd week and very strong 1st week. Lord vamps had to be banned, nothing can be done about those without changing game mechanics - they still take any valuable bank solo with just 1 outer dwell or native town on week 2. Galthran was banned as a starting hero, but allowed for leveling if received in-game. That is as much as you can leave for that hero if you want necromancers to be statistically beatable. And for necromancy it seemed like OK just to ban Amplifier and Isra. And thanks to other restrictions it kinda works. Necros can be beaten.

The purpose of such rules (and the purpose of HotA balancing) is to lower down impossible imbalances (those Veni-Vedi-Vici'es) and increase overall game diversity as other towns, tactics, skills and strategies can adequately get into play. Actually, you can tell how good rules are in heroes by how little things they ban and how many things they partly restrict.

That is it for rules. As for templates... That is a bit easier but I suddenly ran out of time to type, so... someday later

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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted July 18, 2014 05:41 PM
Edited by malax83 at 17:46, 18 Jul 2014.

blueskirt said:

Now, if Crag Hack travels twenty squares on land (50% of the day spent traveling) before embarking (25% of the day spent embarking), that means he'll only be able to sail during the remaining 25% of the day (about five squares at sea) before the day is over.


@hippox,blueskirt

Yeah, i m sorry, my last post is a none sense. That s for me a valuable reason to ignore this modification (HotA already done pathfinding color which help to predict movement points).

That s why i decided to remove this modification of my wish list, so i added another point : "reduce arrow turret damage" cause i think citadel is multi-purpose (defend + 50% growth) - then my shooters won t refuse to attack castle's opponent cause they they would have died by 7.

HotA WISH-LIST
1 - Restore heroes 4 movement (To avoid caravans heroes)
2 - Reduce Cost of surrending
3 - Reduce arrow damage turrets
4 - Mass Spells Balance.

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nik312
nik312


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2014 05:47 PM

malax83 said:
blueskirt said:

Now, if Crag Hack travels twenty squares on land (50% of the day spent traveling) before embarking (25% of the day spent embarking), that means he'll only be able to sail during the remaining 25% of the day (about five squares at sea) before the day is over.


@hippox,blueskirt

Yeah, i m sorry, my last post is a none sense. That s for me a valuable reason to ignore this modification (HotA already done pathfinding color which help to predict movement points).

That s why i decided to remove this modification of my wish list, so i added another point : "reduce arrow turret damage" cause i think citadel is multi-purpose (defend + 50% growth) - then my shooters won t refuse to attack castle's opponent cause they they would have died by 7.

HotA WISH-LIST
1 - Restore heroes 4 movement (To avoid caravans heroes)
2 - Reduce Cost of surrending
3 - Reduce arrow damage turrets
4 - Mass Spells Balance.


Sorry, not much time for explaining left

No, no, no and... sorry again, but no

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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted July 18, 2014 05:52 PM
Edited by malax83 at 17:59, 18 Jul 2014.

NO ?!!!!!

I know it s hard to explain, but please i didn t understand when world say, OMFG caravans in H4 is an evolution !

Isn t it ?

I m wondering how many times nik surrender in heroes 3

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted July 18, 2014 05:58 PM

malax83 said:
OMFG caravans in H4 is an evolution !


I think it's other side - it's an ugly croocked nail to save drastically slowed down map movement of heroes.

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