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| Thread: HotA Secondary Skills Balance |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted January 11, 2014 06:20 PM |
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@ krs
yeah you are right, i had more like a Ghost Behemoths with like 1k HP in my mind (as i said, i play with wog and stack exp.) so my points mentioned are a little bit offTopic here 
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alisapa1211
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 02:04 AM |
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Hobbit said:
Also, some kind of major artifact which prevents all magic-blocking stuff (like Orb of Inhibition, Dispel and Anti-Magic spells, magic resistance etc.) would be nice too. But that's more of a wish than a real solution.
This is more of the real problem with Magic Hero. Oh you have 99 SP and Knowledge, full spells + Orbs and expert in all schools? Sorry, all of them are useless now with one simple Orb of Inhibition, and it is not even that hard to find. The Cloak that prevents lvl 4th and 5th spells are also enough. Aside from this I don't think Magic heroes need any more changes.
I also find it's derpy to have some spells having the exact effect even when you have higher SP (Slow/Haste/Curse/...) and the only thing change is the duration. Though giving them scaling (like Heroes 6) can make them become broken.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 01:40 PM |
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Edited by krs at 13:40, 12 Jan 2014.
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Salamandre said:
A simple borderline would have been to prohibit magic schools from might heroes. But now is too late, there are 10-20 players at max in WT and you don't revamp a whole game for a couple of dinosaurs.
I think you will be surprised on the number of players still playing H3.
On Twitch when Maretti is streaming he constantly has 130~ live viewers. (And that for a game that has a lot of downtime when the other one is moving, so many, myself included, just watch the recording later).
And for every online active player there are 10s inactive ones. I have 5+1 friends playing the game, that never went on a Heroes forum in their life.
And players that played the game at its time seem quite interested in retrying it again, now with this new addon.
If the game gets constant small upgrades like HotA promises, more will start playing it. And those numbers will increase after VMCI comes out.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted January 12, 2014 01:56 PM |
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Quote:
one simple Orb of Inhibition, and it is not even that hard to find
This issue can be solved by adding more artifacts with relic rarity to the game  The more artifacts there are, the rarer Orb becomes.
Actually magic issues was the main purpose I had in mind when creating h4 artifact pack for VCMI.
We are also hoping that some planned features, such as cheat-proof gameplay, simultaneous turns or spectator mode will help multiplayer community grow
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 02:09 PM |
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Edited by Hippox89 at 14:26, 12 Jan 2014.
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@krs
I'd also say that there's a huge potential still for Heroes 3 as a lot of people have played and remember the original Heroes 3, however, most of those that still play Heroes 3 isn't connected to the online community or reading Heroes forums. If Ubisoft were to do something like M$ did with Age of Empires II and the 'Forgotten' it would attract new and 'old' players to the game again, no doubt. Of course they'd monetize the game and stripping LAN out, so I'm not sure I'd like that to happen. I doubt even 10% of anyone still interested in playing Heroes 3 knows about HotA/VCMI/WoG as of yet. I've also introduced HD mod and HotA to a few of my friends that also had no idea that such things even existed.
When HotA becomes more mature and polished then hopefully the gaming press will make a few articles about it and such. Something like a dedicated Heroes 3 matchmaking service might also not be a bad idea. Fans of Command and Conquer games have made 'CnCNet 5' and that service have 150+ people at most times (but they're free games, I know). WT also have such a service, I know, but who really knows about it? Besides, it's too hardcore for most people to figure out, if they were even interested in playing the game in such a way as WT offers in the first place.
Anyhow, Heroes 3 do demand more of you than most games do. Heroes 3 is just best played with friends offline in a LAN in my book. It's like a tea party but with HMM included. I'm not very attracted to how the pros play the game with their 10+ min turns over the internet. Of course, I do respect it.
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AbsintheRed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 12, 2014 04:09 PM |
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krs said:
Salamandre said:
A simple borderline would have been to prohibit magic schools from might heroes. But now is too late, there are 10-20 players at max in WT and you don't revamp a whole game for a couple of dinosaurs.
I think you will be surprised on the number of players still playing H3.
On Twitch when [url=http://www.twitch.tv/maretti0/b/483938483]Maretti [/url]is streaming he constantly has 130~ live viewers. (And that for a game that has a lot of downtime when the other one is moving, so many, myself included, just watch the recording later).
And for every online active player there are 10s inactive ones. I have 5+1 friends playing the game, that never went on a Heroes forum in their life.
And players that played the game at its time seem quite interested in retrying it again, now with this new addon.
If the game gets constant small upgrades like HotA promises, more will start playing it. And those numbers will increase after VMCI comes out.
Indeed, I can second this!
I have at least 15-20 friends who still play Heroes 3 fairly often, including my girlfriend (who is one of the biggest fans I have ever known).
Actually she is the one who dragged me back into it, and that's how I found this forum and the wonderful mods a couple months ago.
The point is neither of us known about HotA or other heroes mods before that, so these 15-20 people even played the original SoD with great joy.
With HotA there is new life in the series, I hope it will soon become a new base for Heroes 3. Especially for multiplayer (along with VCMI when it matures enough).
This also means it should be as perfect and as balanced as possible.
I for one find many of the suggestions here great for balance.
HotA should improve most of those secondary skills as stated in the OP, also magic heroes in general.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 12, 2014 04:16 PM |
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What I meant was "quantity of work required" vs demand, not worth. Those who already completed or worked on huge project know what I mean, the others can continue to dream. 
Skyrim top mods for example have more than 500000 downloads each.
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Era II mods and utilities
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AbsintheRed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 12, 2014 05:44 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Those who already completed or worked on huge project know what I mean, the others can continue to dream.
Actually I spent enormous time (1500+ hours for sure) on Civ IV modding in the past years. I'm one of the main modders of a couple huge mods, including Rhye's and Fall of Europe if anyone familiar there.
Nevertheless you can still call the suggestions in this thread as a wishlist, hopefully many of the issues will be addressed in HotA eventually.
So my skill changes would be, on HotA 1.3.2 as base:
(in most cases it's similar or very close to the OP's suggestions)
Estates:
Basic: 150 gold/day
Advanced: 300 gold/day
Expert: 500 gold/day
Note: minor change, only a small increase on smaller levels, to balance out skill levels
Archery:
Basic: ranged attack damage is increased by 15%
Advanced: ranged attack damage is increased by 30%
Expert: ranged attack damage is increased by 50%
Note: minor change, only a small increase on smaller levels, to balance out skill levels
Resistance:
Basic: 10% chance of spell failure
Advanced: 20% chance of spell failure
Expert: 30% chance of spell failure
Note: medium change, if magic heroes are really buffed, this doubled resistance is more than justified
Artillery:
Basic: HP 250 + 10*HeroLevel, 10ballista's shots have 30% chance of dealing double damage
Advanced: HP 500 + 10*HeroLevel, ballista's shots have 60% chance of dealing double damage
Expert: HP 750 + 10*HeroLevel, ballista's shots deal double damage
Note: minor change, extra HP, but somewhat less chance for double damage on smaller levels (again, balancing out skill levels)
First Aid:
Increase tent HP to 100/150/200/300 (no skill/basic/advanced/expert)
Note: minor change, extra HP on all levels
Learning:
Basic: earned experience is increased by 10%, 10% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Advanced: earned experience is increased by 20%, 20% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Expert: earned experience is increased by 30%, 30% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Note: major change, but a very much needed one
Eagle Eye:
Basic: Your hero is able to look at the spell book of the enemy hero, allowing him to see all level 1 and 2 spells. Every turn, instead of casting a spell, an enemy spell may be blocked from being cast for that turn.
Advanced: The same as Basic, except the hero can look at spells up to level 3 and block up to 2 spells from being cast that turn.
Expert: The same as Basic, except the hero can look at spells up to level 4 and block up to 3 spells from being cast that turn.
Note: major change, one of the most needed one, though this might be hard to implement
Mysticism:
Basic: each turn regenerates 10% of the hero's max spell points
Advanced: each turn regenerates 20% of the hero's max spell points
Expert: each turn regenerates 30% of the hero's max spell points
Note: medium change
Scouting:
Add some basic army/hero information on advanced and expert levels
Note: medium change
Navigation:
Ban skill for all heroes on maps without water
Note: minor change
Air, Water, Earth, Fire Magic:
Ban all magic schools for all might heroes
Note: major change
Some might find this last one gamebreaking, but I think better balance between magic and might heroes justifies it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 12, 2014 05:54 PM |
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The problem with the last one is that eliminates completely the use of might heroes, if you don't create another skill to balance. Is not about mass slow only, but resurrect, town portal, summon boat, forgetfulness and such. Under specific settings they will be practically unable to win fights.
So it will turn at opposite: everyone will use magic heroes from now.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 06:30 PM |
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AbsintheRed said:
Air, Water, Earth, Fire Magic:
Ban all magic schools for all might heroes
Note: major change
Some might find this last one gamebreaking, but I think better balance between magic and might heroes justifies it.
I think banning Expert magic level is enough.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 06:37 PM |
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Edited by krs at 18:48, 12 Jan 2014.
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@AbsintheRed
Learning: chances for an additional primary skill. 10%,20%,30% is too weak. 10% means 1 primary skill for 10! levels... way too low. That's why a flat 50% as proposed by Salamandre is more likely to be of use.
Scouting: It could well give you info about enemy troops. But there is a spell for that. Vissions. Also being a secondary hero skill (the radius buff it got in HotA should be enough)
Mysticism: I very much like this proposal. % from your mana pool each day could be a viable solution. Could/should make the skill crucial for magic heroes. And not so bad if gotten on magic heroes by mischance.
Eagle Eye: the skill changes proposed by Maurice, where you look in your enemies book and ban skills is very interesting. I am concerned only that banning 3 spells could be too powerful and perhaps way to tedious to do it almost every turn. I proposed blocking of only 1 spell but allowing you to cast as-well.
But banning schools to might heroes.... that's not heroes anymore  .
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AbsintheRed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 13, 2014 03:31 AM |
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krs said:
@AbsintheRed
Learning: chances for an additional primary skill. 10%,20%,30% is too weak. 10% means 1 primary skill for 10! levels... way too low. That's why a flat 50% as proposed by Salamandre is more likely to be of use.
Yeah, it can be buffed, but I would still prefer if the percentage increased with the skill level.
Maybe 20%, 40%, 60% chance would work well?
krs said:
Scouting: It could well give you info about enemy troops. But there is a spell for that. Vissions. Also being a secondary hero skill (the radius buff it got in HotA should be enough)
I'm aware of Visions, but I would love to have something here which isn't only additional sight radius.
krs said:
But banning schools to might heroes.... that's not heroes anymore .
Yeah, you guys are probably right...
It would be too drastic :/
Salamandre said:
The problem with the last one is that eliminates completely the use of might heroes, if you don't create another skill to balance. Is not about mass slow only, but resurrect, town portal, summon boat, forgetfulness and such. Under specific settings they will be practically unable to win fights.
So it will turn at opposite: everyone will use magic heroes from now.
Hmm, not sure here though. How would it be that different for summon boat? Or for resurrection and forgetfulness?
Aren't there only percentage differences for these spells?
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blueskirt
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 04:55 AM |
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Regarding balancing Magic heroes and Might heroes, I think we're getting it wrong. Here's the thing, Might truly shine when you and your opponents raise armies from three or more castles, when the unit stacks are huge, when the extra damage you deal or prevent with Expert Offense and Armorer totally outclass the hit points you can remove or restore through spells.
I still have bad memories of getting my handful of Cyclops and Paladins fried to oblivion by Warlocks knocking at my door two weeks into a map and first round casting lightning bolt in Heroes Of Might And Magic I and II. Instead of trying to balance Magic so it can compete with Might in late game, why not instead make it more effective in early game, turn them into a rush type of hero, the kind you would like to use on small to medium map. Suddenly, you don't need to find ways to make them insanely powerful in late game, you just need to give them a little nudge so their effectiveness last a little longer early in the game, before armies get too big for Spell Power and magic secondary skills to keep up.
Here's another idea of Eagle Eye: What if it was the equivalent of Tactics but for Magic heroes, before the battle has begun, you can cast a spell, even if your opponent's units are faster. Afterward, the battle resolve the same. It could also go hand in hand with that cheap "Cast Lightning Bolt, Retreat, Rehire Hero, Rinse and Repeat" tactic. I suppose Eagle Eye related artifacts could stay the same, and simply give you the chance of learning spells cast by your opponent in combat (albeit with bigger probabilities than five to fifteen percent), and an eagle eye combo artifact could gives a wonky bonus, like copying your opponent's entire spell book.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 11:39 AM |
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Here are some ideas for balancing Magic heroes. Not neccessarily for Hota only, for which I'm sure changes, if were to made, would be carried out in a fairly subtle/simple manner.
-Improvements of secondary skills (Eagle Eye, Sorcery, Mysticism..)
-Might heroes get only 8 spell points / Knowledge point
-Might heroes are restricted to learn one Magic school only
-Magic heroes don't need Wisdom and start with basic Intelligence instead
-Use of Orbs of Firmamant/Silt... restricted to Magic heroes
-Use of Orb of Inhibition, Spellbinder's Hat restricted to Magic heroes
-Magic heroes get an extra Power/Knowledge each ... levels
-For Magic heroes spells cost ...% less / endure longer / do more damage
-New Magic school secondary skill rank "Masterful" after Expert for Magic heroes allowing further bonuses
-Many spells are only vanishingly slightly affected by the Power value or the Magic school level -> increase effect
-Bonus in case hero knows all Magic schools at least at basic level
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 11:46 AM |
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AbsintheRed said:
Mysticism:
Basic: each turn regenerates 10% of the hero's max spell points
Advanced: each turn regenerates 20% of the hero's max spell points
Expert: each turn regenerates 30% of the hero's max spell points
Note: medium change
Isn't that too much?
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dtnmang
Hired Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 12:59 PM |
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Edited by dtnmang at 13:03, 13 Jan 2014.
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I have some ideas to balance Secondary Skills:
Leadership
Gives hero the sub-ability Forced March. When activated, hero's army gets 700/400/100 bonus movement points in the next 3 days, but suffers -3 morale penalty during said 3 days. Can be done once per at least 7 days.
Necromancy
Raise 10/15/25% of battlefield's casualties as Skeletons. The amount of reanimated creatures in one day decay over the next 10 days, by 10% per day. Decay doesn't happen if Cloak of the Undead King is equipped when you End Turn.
e.g. You have raised 100 Skeletons with Necromancy by the end of the day, during the next 10 days you will lose 10 Skeletons per day (provided there are still enough skeletons to substract)
First Aid
After battle, revive from your casualties (Hero's Level*2/4/8) HP of one creature stack (you get to choose). Said stack must have at least 1 creature remaining. Don't need to have First Aid Tent to do this, however without the Tent you may only revive (Hero's Level*1/3/5) HP.
Learning
Increase XP gain by 10/15/25%, hero has 20/30/45% chance to gain an additional skill point when leveling up.
Logistics
Increase movement on land by 10/20/25%.
Navigation (Seamastery?)
Increase movement on the sea by 50/125/200%. Hero's creatures gain 2/4/6 bonus Attack and Defence when fighting on or on land that is no greater than 600 distance from the sea.
Sorcery
Increase magic damage by 5/15/25% and duration for spells by 1/3/5 turns.
Eagle Eye
Gives the hero the sub-ability Scribe. When activated, hero can copy spells from Scrolls or Tomes to hero's own Spell Book (Sea Captain's Hat and Admiral's Hat do not count), up to spell level of 2/3/4. Scribe can't be used for the next 1/2/3/4 days if you've copied a level 1/2/3/4 spell, respectively.
Luck
Hero gets +1/2/3 luck. Has 25% chance to increase gold gain from Treasure Chests by 100/200/300 (this doesn't affect XP reward) and 50% chance to increase resource gain from Creature Banks by 10/20/30% (this doesn't affect creature reward).
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hippox89
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 01:43 PM |
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Edited by hippox89 at 14:05, 13 Jan 2014.
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Some of all these ideas (not all!) in this thread sound very WoGish to me and not doesn't feel quite SoD which I don't particular like.
A subtle change could be that non-magic heroes would have to pay 2000 gold at a Magic School because the training would take longer for a might hero.
I'm not saying this would be enough in itself, but at least it *seems* a more subtle change and feels more SoD to me. I could be wrong, though.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 02:12 PM |
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Yes, I agree that this kinf of threads end in very WoG ideas. But HotA team has proven to made an expansion for Heroes 3 with a SoD/AB feeling, so I say let's trust in them once again, shall we?
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MagniBronzeb...
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 02:14 PM |
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I'd like to see the secondary skill being more balanced like in heroes 5 (done by russians as this mod)
AbsintheRed said:
First Aid:
Increase tent HP to 100/150/200/300 (no skill/basic/advanced/expert)
Note: minor change, extra HP on all levels
Learning:
Basic: earned experience is increased by 10%, 10% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Advanced: earned experience is increased by 20%, 20% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Expert: earned experience is increased by 30%, 30% chance for a random primary skill point on levelup
Note: major change, but a very much needed one
Eagle Eye:
Basic: Your hero is able to look at the spell book of the enemy hero, allowing him to see all level 1 and 2 spells. Every turn, instead of casting a spell, an enemy spell may be blocked from being cast for that turn.
Advanced: The same as Basic, except the hero can look at spells up to level 3 and block up to 2 spells from being cast that turn.
Expert: The same as Basic, except the hero can look at spells up to level 4 and block up to 3 spells from being cast that turn.
Note: major change, one of the most needed one, though this might be hard to implement
Navigation:
Ban skill for all heroes on maps without water
Note: minor change
First aid: could ressurect some of units if there is more hp left to prevent those annoying little losses. Nothing big, as in h5, having more creeping value than big battles.
Learning: gaining a primary skill by a chance is too luck based. H5 system was good, one primary skill every 4 levels, increasing the rate depending on skill level.
Eagle eye: 100% chance to learn the spell seen, even this way you can hardly learn anything useful plus enabling to learn spells from creatures, including those on attack (Sea witch weakness, Thunderbird lightning etc).
Navigation: could give some remaining movement points when boarding, unboarding the ship, depending on the skill, however is not necessary.
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krs
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 06:56 PM |
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@blueskirt In random maps (depending on size) if you get dragon guards, you will never break out of your area. Your opponent might hero will be knocking on your castle before you can do that.
There are many suggestion that Tent should resurrect... I personally dislike the idea. It will be too good for creeping with level 6/7 creatures or will make archers too survivable... the beauty right now is that if you meet a strong ranged guard, you will have to approach them differently or accept some losses or both. With resurrecting tents you will not loose any army to those.
As for Mysticism giving 20% Mana / day. Usually you have no mana because of frequent fights. At level 10 you have some 60 mana 20/% is 12 mana. Barely enough for 1 fight with a mage. But maybe a TOTAL CAP could also be the way to go.
Something like Hero recovers 40% mana daily or 25MP, whichever is greatest....
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