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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 09:34 AM |
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@Kip
I am tired of debating with person like you. You have no arguments. Let's return once again to what was said:
1) You compared Maidan to separatism, wondering why we should treat that in different ways.
2) I gave plenty of differences between Maidan and separatism.
3) Now you say that I am brainwashed, that I should understand that they used me. No arguments as usual.
Also here is your quote from page #1 in this thread:
Quote:
Gunfred, don't be a brainwashed idiot. Putin is smarter than that. He didn't sent troops in and I doubt he will.
Annexing Ukraine would be a clear go to launch nukes at each other.
Brainwasher is your middle name?
@Orzie
You have problems with logic. Do you really think that I didn't see some of these videos? I didn't deny that some of the APCs carried russian flags. But why the heck did you decide that some of ukrainian army joined separatists? Didn't you think that those armymen just couldn't fire on the grannies and the APCs were blocked and then captured. I bet you didn't see all the videos and you don't know that some of the APCs escaped. Or maybe by your logic this guy uses hand grenade to greet separatists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP2NsCGyp-M
There are about 6 APCs still in hands of separatists, but the army men returned to their base in Dnipropetrovsk. So you better prove that some of army men joined separatists or apologize.
Quote:
Congrats, it's the civil war. One does not simply change the government without a snowload of problems related. But people on Maidan of course did not take that into account, thinking that 40000 people can decide for the rest of 45 millions.
We were already talking about this argument. Try to understand that we want elections, everyone in the country will have a right to vote. At the same time Russia understands that it is obviously a losing scenario and Russia wants to disrupt the elections. Who is right here?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 18, 2014 09:46 AM |
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ihor, Russia is not trying to disrupt the elections but to make sure that it will have a chance to protect its interests after them. With the interim government being composed of people from Tymoshenko's party and far right anti-Russians, who are backed up by multiple western countries not exactly because they are all fair and nice people, what reasons does Putin (or anyone for that matter, including the people in the east) have to expect even remotely normal elections?
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 09:55 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:18, 18 Apr 2014.
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@Zenofex
Yes, obviously Russia wants to protect its interests. But that is in any case interfering in internal politics of Ukraine.
On a different note: Zenofex, I heard Bulgaria started removing pipes for South Stream, is that true? That is probably not economically good for Bulgaria, what do your people say about this?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 10:35 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 10:36, 18 Apr 2014.
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Well, Putins made one thing for sure. The Europeans will listen a lot more to the calls of achieving energy independence from Russia. Have fun with your economy, Putin!
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 18, 2014 11:01 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 11:02, 18 Apr 2014.
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ihor said:
On a different note: Zenofex, I heard Bulgaria started removing pipes for South Stream, is that true? That is probably not economically good for Bulgaria, what do your people say about this?
No, we haven't. South Stream is a very important project for the country and the government has already declared that it won't just play the obedient boy and will defend it to the last and at the very least will request major compensations. That's a PR move mostly but on the other hand the current ruling parties have sourced multiple scandals for less than an year and the government doesn't have very high rating so anything which may lead to economic losses is a very delicate topic, to say the least. The majority of the population is already pretty sick of the post-Soviet political servitude toward various western countries (as opposed to the servitude to the USSR before that) but never toward our own. South Stream will not be cancelled without a fight, that's for sure.
Quote:
Well, Putins made one thing for sure. The Europeans will listen a lot more to the calls of achieving energy independence from Russia. Have fun with your economy, Putin!
The EU created plans to become less dependant on Russian energy resources quite some time ago. Problem is, they don't grow on trees. Like it or not, Russia is Europe's biggest supplier of various resources for adequate prices and that's not going to change for at least one more decade.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 11:54 AM |
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That was certainly not the case when the German chancellor Gerhard Schröder hooked Germany and much of Europe up on Russian gas just a decade ago. Russia's biggest gun is the Gazprom and it needs to be disarmed. Once it has, and Russia starts losing much of its gas exports while at the same time being stuck with a corrupt oligarchy and state bureaucracy, I have a very hard time seeing the country become the great empire Putin seems to want it to become.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 18, 2014 02:28 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 14:30, 18 Apr 2014.
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You just don't get it, do you? Europe imports energy resources from Russia simply because it has nowhere else to take them from in such quantities and for such prices. Blame Santa Claus if you want, that's a completely normal economic development. The only real way for the EU to gradually become less dependant on Russia for its power supplies is to develop alternative energy sources which can be deployed in large scale and in all member states. This is no short term task, not to mention that its success is far from guaranteed, so in the near future the EU needs Russia even more than Russia needs the EU (it can export to other countries as well, although it will need time to develop the needed infrastructure).
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 18, 2014 05:30 PM |
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Edited by kipshasz at 17:31, 18 Apr 2014.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 08:56 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:58, 18 Apr 2014.
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Zenofex said:
You just don't get it, do you? Europe imports energy resources from Russia simply because it has nowhere else to take them from in such quantities and for such prices. Blame Santa Claus if you want, that's a completely normal economic development. The only real way for the EU to gradually become less dependant on Russia for its power supplies is to develop alternative energy sources which can be deployed in large scale and in all member states. This is no short term task, not to mention that its success is far from guaranteed, so in the near future the EU needs Russia even more than Russia needs the EU (it can export to other countries as well, although it will need time to develop the needed infrastructure).
Who said anything about short term tasks?
I said it was wrong to get Europe hooked on Russian gas and that it needs to become less dependent on it. Obviously, considering how strong that dependence is for a lot of countries, that takes a lot of time. But it is not unfeasible. Nuclear power is an excellent option and I hope Germany will reconsiders its stance on it. The shale gas revolution can happen in Europe too.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 09:17 PM |
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@Ihor
Not going to apologize for anything (as well as the people who are on the other side of the barricades in this thread, especially those who scream about pro-russian propaganda).
So how would you comment this video? It's not made by Russians, actually.
http://russian.rt.com/inotv/2014-04-16/Ukrainskaya-armiya-na-glazah-stanovitsya
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 09:57 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 22:05, 18 Apr 2014.
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Of course you are not going to apologize. Too much pride.
So what do you want me to comment here. You see some evidence of army switching sides from this video or what? I don't speak German and don't understand what the reporter says and don't trust RT at all. Anyway even if he really says something about switching sides that doesn't mean that it is true. He might have reported what had heard from locals. Didn't you think why don't we have an official announcement of some of the army men? The official announcement would help separatists a lot. But we don't have one. You can try to make conclusions...
I can guess that in case of a real war, there will be some maybe 10% who might switch sides. Apparently the 10% is a typical collaborators percentage of support of Hitler in occupied cities during WW2. But as of now no single army unit of Ukraine switched sides. And you have no evidences, just a pure trust in Russian propaganda like RT.
Edit:
@Orzie and @Aron: guys, please learn to use BB codes. Think about others, don't post links as plain text. It is difficult to open those links from mobile. Here is a guide for you:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=27340
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 11:44 PM |
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Yeah sorry about that dude. It's just that that the forum is a bit old and you can't mark text you want coded and I'm mostly working/studying on a laptop without a mouse so it gets to be a bit of a hassle sometimes.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 11:47 PM |
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Interdependence is both a globalist strategy of weakning the national state and a move towards peace and co-prosperity.
Take that for what you want.
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Xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 19, 2014 02:29 AM |
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Edited by Xerox at 02:34, 19 Apr 2014.
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Aron said:
Interdependence is both a globalist strategy of weakning the national state and a move towards peace and co-prosperity.
Take that for what you want.
I do believe in economic interdependence. However, it's different when your dependent on an enormous STATE corporation which doesn't just want profit, but geopolitical power.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 20, 2014 10:22 AM |
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The "Easter truce" turned to be pretty short (quoting western media because many people here have allergy to Russian ones, the actual source of the information is Russian though). What is not mentioned in this article is that the separatists and Russia claim that they discovered some Right Sector insignia in the cars of the attackers. Investigation is underway.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 20, 2014 01:15 PM |
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The story is strange. I don't understand how they found insignias in a burnt car. Also I don't think that Right Sector is interested in destabilizing the situation. But who knows.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 20, 2014 02:45 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 15:05, 20 Apr 2014.
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A great site about the previous oligarchy and the scum that used to run it:
1
2
Have you got any more information on this room:
3
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BrennusWhiskey
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
The quickest H4 player
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posted April 22, 2014 01:43 PM |
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@ Ihor
The discussion with some guys is useless. Everything you say they will say oposite.
The white is black and it was not Russia who started this, even if she will consume all your country.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted April 23, 2014 02:12 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 14:13, 23 Apr 2014.
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I am open if anyone has different from mine point of view on some of the questions. However in my opinion there must be some facts or proofs that could confirm the statements. Guesses are just guesses. If one says some statement 100 times without any facts it doesn't automatically becomes true.
On the topic, many of the green men were identified by bloggers. Here is an article:
http://inforesist.org/insurgents-identified-the-green-men-of-vkontakte/?lang=en
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 23, 2014 02:23 PM |
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Looks like the talks in Geneva were a complete farce. Neither the government in Kiev shows any signs that intends to disarm and disband the Right Sector, nor are the separatists laying down their weapons. Today Turchynov announced that the "anti-terrorist" operation is restarted, following the discovery of the disfigured corpse of a politician from his party (and the visit of the US vice-president among other things). Let's see how far it will go this time.
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This thread is pages long: 
