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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:01 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:28, 04 May 2014.
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ihor said:
And finally about western media. You try to deny the whole story just because you found it odd they said several thousand and several?
Please answer following questions:
1) Did pro-Ukrainian people have firearms?
2) Did pro-Russian people have firearms?
3) Did pro-Russian people attack pro-Ukrainian people?
4) Did police work together with pro-Russian people?
I don't deny the story (and it's indeed very tragic, and I consider Right Sector as barbarians and vandals after that), I just find it absurdic how pro-western media makes such mistakes in their reports not caring that many people read them. I expected them to write another lies like 'A massive aggressive crowd of pro-Russian activists slammed into the peaceful demonstration of nazi Right Sector and football ultras'. Seriously, it's no less absurd than the self-shot of Sashko Bilyi.
1) I will just leave it here. [url=http://vi.ill.in.ua/m/950x0/803102.jpg]And this, it's from UA source.[/url] I doubt you will be able to live after such bottle broken of your face.
2) Most probably, you have shown me some photos. There seemed to be no firearms in the burnt building (although UA sources scream about the automatic weapons firing from windows) but I doubt they didn't have any when they were on the ground. Personally, I would shoot too if I saw that a crowd of tough guys are running for my head.
3) I cannot believe that a small bunch of pro-Russian activists can attack a crowd outnumbering them 100-fold. I don't believe they wanted to die. There are less hurting methods to do it.
4) According to all sources I know, the police stood still and did not interfere.
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just talking about imaginary fascists
I consider anyone wearing this aggressive symbolic as a neo-nazi. No matter what they think of themselves.
The colors of a typical anarchist flag - black for death, red for blood. It's not like the native Ukrainian flag which is more than peaceful (skies and crops). It's an opposite of that - the burnt ground and the blood sky.
The color solution of this symbolic openly describes the purposes and targets of this organization. And they accept anyone in their ranks, which means something. Who would go to such organization on the first place? Just taking a firemen machine because they can? They are bandits lead by a bandit, and the youngsters are dumb crazy to follow them, blinded by propaganda and naive ideals. Soon they will be taught how to hate anything Russian, and taught that they have nothing in common with Russian people. A new generation bred on the fairy-tales about Bandera the Hero of Ukraine.
The word 'Right' also openly describes the entity of this organization. Everyone knows what is 'Right' when we speak about politics.
And with all those rumors about canceling the Day of the Victory (9th of May), accumulating with the dominance of the Right Sector who seems to be the main fighting force of the new government, burning houses with the weapons of terror (molotov cocktail) and telling that the burnt people are terrorists, just cannot pass through me without an impact.
I remember them several years ago, when they did not have any political power, wearing skinhead outfits and grimly gazing towards anyone. They were just another nazi scum like we in Russia had, the same rude faces and manners, and pretensions like they are better than everyone else.
Now they wear civil clothes and random military stuff, they are in every city and their ideology is just to destroy, not to create or solve the problem in a peaceful way. They are the puppets of big capitals which drive all processes in the Ukraine, for no big process can go thus far without a good lobbyist.
I regret we are being farther and farther from each other, but I will never stand your position on that point. Maidan was not that bad in comparison to what happens now.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:23 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 19:27, 04 May 2014.
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1) Man, this is not a firearm. It's a traumatic pistol. It is legal in Ukraine. The sound of a firearm is much much louder. (you failed  ) Did you try to shoot from a firearm? If you have more "proofs", you're welcome.
I don't deny Molotovs, they were used by both sides.
2) Ok, you agreed.
3) You cannot belive what? The march of pro-ukrainian people was planned. What the pro-russian people doing there with guns? Defending?
4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBofgPq1EUs
Watch that video again.
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I consider anyone wearing this aggressive symbolic as a neo-nazi...
Yes, YOU consider.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:28 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:34, 04 May 2014.
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>Man, this is not a firearm. It's a traumatic pistol
So this man considered it right to shoot people who were saving their lives from the fire?
That video does not tell me anything. I cannot even see the firearms everyone says about. Tell me the seconds please.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:33 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 19:35, 04 May 2014.
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I assume there was no fire at that time in the building or someone from inside was shooting at him. However that is a wild guess, I don't know.
EDIT:
If he was firing at the people who were trying to save their lives, then he is a cynic criminal, no argue.
What I want from you is to confirm that you agree that pro-russian people attacked pro-ukrainian people first to understand who is a provocateur here. Do you agree with this?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:37 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:40, 04 May 2014.
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I don't know who attacked who. But I doubt that 400 people would attack 4000. And I doubt that RS activists + ultras from other cities have come just to peacefully demostrate (demonstrate what? territorial unity? overwhelming power? huh!). If there were just ordinary people like on Maidan on the early and mid-stages, I would not be so radical in my thoughts. But now I have no doubt that the atrocity could have been avoided, but Right Sector did not want to avoid it.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:42 PM |
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Ultras from other cities (from Kharkiv only) came because there was a match between Kharkiv and Odesa teams.
400 people could attack 4000 if they have guns.
We have a fact that one side attacked another. I try to convince you that pro-russian are attackers. That's simple. Pro-ukrainian people had planned peaceful demonstration. It is not clear what pro-russian people were doing there. Why do you keep denying this obvious thing?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:55, 04 May 2014.
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There would be a point to attack such a crowd only if every of the 400 people had a firearm. And this would be a meat grinder. I don't believe pro-Russians were complete idiots. A reverse scenario is much and much more believable - because it would be an easy target for them, even if they had firearms (which would only ignite their anger towards them).
Sorry, but I don't believe in peaceful intentions of the Right Sector and ultras. Right Sector would not have a sword in their logo otherwise. It has more meaning than you think - usually there is a shield instead, and the Ministry of Defense is called of Defense. Right Sector ideology is not to protect.
Most probably if they would see a Russian flag or whatever, they would at least hurt them to the loss of consciousness. If you observe comments on the Internet, the majority of the pro-Ukrainian users are really hostile towards the separatists, thanks to the propaganda. They want their blood, and many enjoyed the burnt bodies. Just read the comments which are below the videos you sent me by yourself.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 08:02 PM |
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That's sad you don't want to accept the obvious things. Probably by your version ultras and RS gathered together to look around the city and find pro-russian people and burn them. Or there was no attack at all and it's a common thing to see guys with AK-47 on the streets of Odesa.
And you know, I am hostile to separatists as well. No wonder, because they are SEPARATISTS! Do you know what this word means? No propaganda needed.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 04, 2014 08:05 PM |
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Quote:
C'mon it is dangerous to even speak Ukrainian near the armed guys in Sloviansk. There are records that confirm the separatists from Sloviansk are related to the murder of regional deputy from Gorlivka who tried to take away the flag of so-called Donbas Republic. A lot of reporters and international observers were taken as hostages. That proves the whole structure of Sloviansk separatists is a terrorist organization. National Guard can't be terrorist organization, it's a governemntal structure, they obey to orders. Right Sector can be on the other hand, if for example they kill several peaceful civilians, that might be considered as a terror act. But we don't have such situation right now and I don't want to investigate all hypotetical scenarios and what should CIA say about that.
How does that differ from the right-wings in Kiev giving a good beating to people who don't support the current status quo or just don't show it in the "proper" way? There has already been several such reports, you know about them.
As for the observers and journalist hostages - the separatists reason they might be used by Kiev/US as spies. That's a valid reason actually, I assume Kiev has exactly the same policy about Russian journalists. To my knowledge, none of the journalists or the observers has been deliberately hurt and the OSCE observers have already been released. Do you have other information?
About the Right Sector - what do you think about the claims about Right Sector members of the National Guard shooting at civilians in Kramatorsk? The sources for this so far are only the local separatists and Russian media, however I don't expect something like this to be advertised by the Kiev government.
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Why do you see any problem of using National Guard? It is also a unit in police structure and can be used by governmental decision.
That's not what I said though, I said that a large portion of the National Guard consists of blatantly anti-Russian fighters and sending them against Russian-speakers is completely illogical if your aim is to reduce the tension and adhere to the Geneva agreements. The conclusion is that you either don't want to reduce the tension, or you are incredibly stupid. Take your pick.
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It is both in interests of US and Ukraine to get rid of gunmen on the East of Ukraine to stabilize the situation.
It is far from certain that the US wants to stabilize the situation. Anything which can provoke Russia to invade works in their favour because they will be able to tell the world "see how the Russian monster attacks sovereign nations" and isolate it even more. Don't feed the illusions that the US gives a damn about the Ukrainians outside the scope of their geopolitical aims, they don't differ from Russia in this regard at all. No, if there is a party from the West which is interested in stabilization, it's the EU. The US loses nothing in this conflict and if it plays its cards well, it can win a lot (on behalf of NATO). The EU loses much. The German government is already under heavy pressure to drop the plans for further sanctions against Russia, certain countries from Eastern Europe are unwilling to support "hard" approach and only the UK occasionally plays the tough guy. No matter how the whole thing ends, the EU will suffer short-term losses which might result in mid- and long-term consequences.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 08:09 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 20:17, 04 May 2014.
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Quote:
And you know, I am hostile to separatists as well. No wonder, because they are SEPARATISTS! Do you know what this word means? No propaganda needed.
These people can be just afraid of what happens in Ukraine currently. I would be also afraid, because the current state of Ukraine is sorrowful. Just try to look in the future and guess what problems Ukraine faces apart from the pro-Russian sentiment in some regions. Ukrainians are too much distracted from those problems being busy in so-called sofa wars.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 08:24 PM |
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@Zenofex
Beating people is a crime, but are you trying to say it can be considered as a terror act? I doubt, lawyers should classify this.
As I mentioned deputy Rybak from Gorlivka was killed. The student from Kyiv was killed in Sloviansk as well. Pro-ukrainian people are afraid to say their opinions out loud. Do you remember, I posted the photos from a meeting in Donetsk? Plus they captured a lot of buildings.
I didn't hear about RS members in National Guard shooting at civilians in Kramatorsk. Do you have a link? National Guard members should obey to orders of their commander as this is a police unit.
Forget about Geneva treaty. Separatists refused to give the guns away, so it doesn't matter whom to send: National Guard, SBU or army. Their task is not to persuade separatists, but to clean the city. If one side refuses the peaceful variant, then you suggest the government to wait and do nothing?
About US: the things you say might be true. Honestly I don't know if the US wants to stabilize or destabilize. We will see.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 08:30 PM |
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@Orzie
Yes, they might be afraid, but they must not break the laws and divide the country. They could have used other methods to be heard. For example I can understand if they said "we want less corruption" or "we want to live better". What we have is they say they want to separate from Ukraine. And they use guns. I can't accept that.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 08:44 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 20:54, 04 May 2014.
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However, they didn't kill people. And people who wanted less corruption and better living - did. And yeah, they also want to live better, they just don't believe in the new Ukrainian government and its ability to make their lives better.
I don't deny that there can be Russian intelligence working, but I don't also see any proof that it is really true.
The case in Odessa outnumbered twice the victims of south-eastern conflicts from both sides, and in Odessa there were much less guns. Not even speaking about the entirely 'peaceful' Maidan. Some things to consider.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 04, 2014 09:05 PM |
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Who didn't kill the people?
We've just had a conversation about Odesa and separatists killed 6 (or 8) pro-ukrainian people.
Separatists from Kharkiv killed 1 (or 2?) man more than a month ago during a meeting.
Separatists from Donetsk killed 1 man during a pro-Ukrainian meeting some time ago.
Separatists from Sloviansk killed deputy from Gorlivka who took away the flag of Donbas republic.
Most of pro-ukrainian meetings on the East end with attacks by pro-russian separatists.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 06:30 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 06:52, 05 May 2014.
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Oh yeah, you convinced me. Of course peaceful protesters wear latex gloves because they are peaceful. They also take chains and other melee weapons because they are peaceful. And of course they wear battle outfit and shields stolen from Berkut because they have come to a peaceful meeting.
Separatists didn't kill people until they were attacked by the army and the Right Sector. When firearms are involved from both sides, it is a surprise that so less people died.
And yeah, something from Avakov, straight in Russian, but I aim this for you directly. Now those 10 survivors who were imprisoned after the event are BLAMED for killing all 46 Odessa victims! This is what I call scum government composed of liars. Now everyone will think that pro-Russians killed pro-Russians + pro-Ukrainians and must be lynched.
Ihor, I don't doubt you love your country, but your denying the facts of violence held by the Right Sector is naive and meaningless. You try to make me admit that pro-Russian forces are the only agressive, but cannot see a log in your eye searching for a sand grain in mine.
And for ALL English-speaking people here. Please, PLEASE, read this.
There can be some twisted truth in the text, but the photos describe everything, especially the bullet holes in the heads of the burnt people, and the burnt heads of the people whose torsoes and legs are untouched by fire.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 05, 2014 08:16 AM |
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Quote:
Beating people is a crime, but are you trying to say it can be considered as a terror act? I doubt, lawyers should classify this
Your point, I think, was that it's not safe to show pro-Ukrainian sentiments in Eastern Ukraine. My point is that it's the same in Kiev, only reversed. Can you deny it?
Quote:
As I mentioned deputy Rybak from Gorlivka was killed. The student from Kyiv was killed in Sloviansk as well. Pro-ukrainian people are afraid to say their opinions out loud. Do you remember, I posted the photos from a meeting in Donetsk? Plus they captured a lot of buildings.
I didn't hear about RS members in National Guard shooting at civilians in Kramatorsk. Do you have a link? National Guard members should obey to orders of their commander as this is a police unit.
Here it is. It's near Slavyansk, not Kramatorsk but for some reason our news agencies reported Kramatorsk at first. Like I said, no major Western sources confirm this but if we assume that it's true - what do you think about this? And again, if it's true - do you think that someone will hold the killers responsible for what they did or this will be marked as "part of the anti-terrorist operation", etc.?
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Forget about Geneva treaty. Separatists refused to give the guns away, so it doesn't matter whom to send: National Guard, SBU or army. Their task is not to persuade separatists, but to clean the city. If one side refuses the peaceful variant, then you suggest the government to wait and do nothing?
The Geneva treaty was for all "illegal armed groups", including the Right Sector. There is no proof that the Right Sector is disarmed, many of the casualties in the east are attributed to them, whether as part of the National Guard or as individual actions. You are blaming the separatists for not handing their weapons but can you honestly say that the government is not using the right-wings in the same way as Russia is using the separatists? I mean - really honestly? You will never hear from Kiev admitting that of course but so far absolutely all casualties in the conflict are claimed to be Russia's fault (Yatsenyuk recently blamed Russia for what happened in Odesa too... yeah, again only Russia is guilty, unsurprisingly) - do you think that this is even technically possible?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 08:59 AM |
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Orzie said:
And for ALL English-speaking people here. Please, PLEASE, read this.
There can be some twisted truth in the text, but the photos describe everything, especially the bullet holes in the heads of the burnt people, and the burnt heads of the people whose torsoes and legs are untouched by fire.
bad people doing bad things. the photo's do speak for themselves: they say that these people were possibly overrun(the photo's could have been staged, though it's not likely); that those in the photos were deliberately murdered; and, based on the more popular media about the incident, that there is a coverup taking place. what they don't tell you, is WHO did it. nearly anyone could have done what you see in the photos.
the problem is, everyone is blaming each other. this kind of thing is only going to escalate. it is clear that each side are trying to rally more and more people behind their causes.
i can see war coming from this. things are really getting out of hand now, and if no one comes to their senses, there are going to be a whole lot more bodies to take pictures of.
it's stuff like this, that'll never let humanity evolve past their own ideals. they'll keep tearing at each other until there's no one left to tear apart.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 09:15 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 09:16, 05 May 2014.
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@Orzie
What exactly do you think I deny?
Did I deny ultras are aggressive? - No.
Did I deny pro-ukrainian people used Molotovs and sticks? - No.
Eventually they had 6(!) hours to bring anything they wanted. What I am saying is:
Armed pro-russian people attacked peaceful (at that time) planned meeting.
This is how the meeting looked like before pro-russian activits came:
Since you first referenced photos from napaki.livejournal.com, then please read the whole article!
http://napaki.livejournal.com/100072.html
Still can't accept what actually happened?
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Separatists didn't kill people until they were attacked by the army and the Right Sector
Sorry, Orzie, that is not true, the guy in Kharkiv was killed at the first pro-ukrainian meeting there. The guy in Donetsk was killed before the ATO as well. The deputy from Sloviansk was killed about at the same time when ATO was only started (but when it was started it was not in active phase). And these 6 guys in Odesa? Odesa was peaceful before that. Or your separatists decided to kill several guys in Odesa because ATO started in Sloviansk? Your point is totally false.
And by the way in the article I sent you in this post please pay attention to the fact how pro-russian activists broke the window in a car just because they saw a ukrainian flag inside. That shows pro-russian side very well. Hate to everything ukrainian.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 09:31 AM |
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Quote:
Your point, I think, was that it's not safe to show pro-Ukrainian sentiments in Eastern Ukraine. My point is that it's the same in Kiev, only reversed. Can you deny it?
Of course it is safe to speak russian in Kyiv, it is safe to be a reporter or independent observer in Kyiv, it might not be safe to be a separatist because it is illegal.
Quote:
Here it is. It's near Slavyansk, not Kramatorsk but for some reason our news agencies reported Kramatorsk at first. Like I said, no major Western sources confirm this but if we assume that it's true - what do you think about this? And again, if it's true - do you think that someone will hold the killers responsible for what they did or this will be marked as "part of the anti-terrorist operation", etc.?
The Geneva treaty was for all "illegal armed groups", including the Right Sector. There is no proof that the Right Sector is disarmed, many of the casualties in the east are attributed to them, whether as part of the National Guard or as individual actions. You are blaming the separatists for not handing their weapons but can you honestly say that the government is not using the right-wings in the same way as Russia is using the separatists? I mean - really honestly? You will never hear from Kiev admitting that of course but so far absolutely all casualties in the conflict are claimed to be Russia's fault (Yatsenyuk recently blamed Russia for what happened in Odesa too... yeah, again only Russia is guilty, unsurprisingly) - do you think that this is even technically possible?
First of all - yes, I don't trust RT. Anyway if that is true, it looks like it is not a governmental unit who did that. That was mentioned "black uniform and armbands". It looks like [url]"black men"[/url] - Kip already mentioned about them in this thread.
We need to understand what is cause and what is consequence. If we don't have pro-russian gunmen, then we don't have these black men. They declared their task is to kill separatists. And the way how they work is obviously not deescalating the conflict. But again, no pro-russian armed men -> no black men. From the government point of view, they shouldn't try to disarm black men, if pro-russian men don't want to give their guns. Russia has to make the first step here.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 09:54 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 09:58, 05 May 2014.
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@Fred
Don't believe Orzie. It is sad that so many people died, but that article is non-sense. Pure propaganda.
For example:
Take a look in my post from the previous page, police and pro-russian people wore these armbands.
Or this one:
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People shot in the head.
What??? If people has burnt head and arms, that does not mean they were shot in the head.
Or this one:
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it's quite possible that the killers were "exchanging" their clothing with victims
Lol what???
The photos only describe that people died in fire or smoke. On the previous page I also posted a photo where some of the pro-ukrainian activists tried to save the people from the burning building and many were saved.
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