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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 10:07 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:13, 05 May 2014.
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Quote:
it might not be safe to be a separatist because it is illegal.
Again a naive statement. What if a bunch of Right Sector activists decide that you support separatists by a single carelessly spoken word? Right Sector 'elite forces' are allowed to do virtually anything, and we have watched a lot of videos when they interfered in the work of the police and the administration.
Yeah, I learnt something from that journal, seems to be neatly written. I don't know why pro-Russian activists were planning to offend the crowd, probably they are idiots wanting to die. As for the gunfire - you should probably ask the policemen of Odessa why they supported that - the armed people did not look like pro-Russian youngsters, but more like middle-aged men. And again, it's really strange that there are so less dead while we see automatic weapon. There was something like 30-50 m distance, people would die massively from a gunfire like that. Also, that journal still leaves unclear why the armed pro-Ukrainians appeared so fast from the totally unarmed crowd, like from the underground, and took the full initiative.
Moreover, I don't see any photos of neither nazis nor ultras in that crowd photos, they do have different appearance. So that I doubt that these photos are the only ones made by the author of the journal.
Nevertheless, the massacre in the burning house could and should have been avoided, because yes, like you said, everything was clear after the city encounter. And the photos which I posted in that journal also should not be ignored by you. What do you think, that young couple with broken necks followed the pro-Russians in that house to convince them they are wrong and were killed by evil annoyed pro-Russians because of it? Barely. Same for people with red bandages on the roof of the building. You cannot deny that this is more than strange.
Right Sector is a bunch of scum who do what they want while their actions are not watched by cameras. The youngsters who wear their symbols are just poor blind chilren who really think they help their own country. However, the middle-aged elite of this organization has more complex view on the situation and on their targets especially.
A government who tolerates radicals and justifies every their action is not a government. Ukrainian junta not only supports radicals, but openly uses them as their pets and cannon fodder, not even trying to hide that.
I am sorry for Ukraine. Bad days are coming for it.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 10:21 AM |
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I am glad you agreed that pro-russian people were attackers.
As for your question: why the heck did you decide that they have broken necks? Because that was written in that article? I guess they choked in smoke.
People with red armbands are pro-russian. Don't you agree?
I don't want to excuse the RS, in this situation they behaved badly. Provocation did the job.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:36, 05 May 2014.
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No, I don't agree that they are pro-Russian. It's more likely that they are not. And also I wonder why the burnt corpses are found on all levels of the building while the fire was only on the first one. Moreover, it's still unclear why the separatists on the first level didn't run to higher levels to save their lives.
Also, don't get me wrong. It's unclear who were these people with wooden shields even if they wore orange-and-black ribbons. They have nothing different with the 'Maidan defenses' if the ribbon is worn off.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 10:36 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 10:40, 05 May 2014.
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Take a look at the photo I posted earlier. See red armbands? See the same guys has ribbons of Saint George which pro-russian activists wear?
EDIT:
OK, so you edited the post. You think they decided to dress on ribbons of Saint George temporarily or what? I don't see the logical line here.
As for the people between the floors. That has a logical explanation as well. When your clothes is on fire, you are trying to find exit as soon as possible. They managed to run to the places where they eventually died. That's sad.
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 05, 2014 10:41 AM |
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Quote:
The colors of a typical anarchist flag - black for death, red for blood.
Don't mind me, just tuning in for the useless fact of the day.
Red and black are the colours of leftist anarchism, which is in every manner in direct opposition to the Right Sector's ideology. Even the symbology is entirely different.
The combination wasn't chosen by anarchists to attempt to frighten or intimidate. Black is the traditional "colour" of anarchism - due to it not being as much a colour as the absence of one. It hence represents the absence of the traditional flag (symbollic of the nation and the state) in an anarchist society.
The red bit goes way back to the French revolution, and is the colour of the world-wide labour movement and, later, socialism and communism. None of which the Right Sector seems to be too fond of.
Anarchism isn't a synonym for chaos and strife, it's a valid political thought. Albeit one that didn't go well with the bolshevik views on revolution and administration, so they ground Makhno and the significant anarchist portion of the October revolutionaries into the dust and introduced a century of demonization. The dictatorship of the proletariat was as dear to the bolsheviks as it was anathema to the anarchists.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 10:46 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:53, 05 May 2014.
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>As for the people between the floors. That has a logical explanation as well. When your clothes is on fire, you are trying to find exit as soon as possible. They managed to run to the places where they eventually died. That's sad.
They wouldn't run so far anyway. Also, still unclear why many have only heads burnt, as well as females lacking clothes.
Yeah, I notice the red ribbon. In this case you may be right. But still, red ribbons are more characteristic to the RS instead, so taking off the St.George ribbon will have more impact than you think.
Actually, the snow shooting people from the automatic weapon is dead now. Sashko Bilyi scenario once again. Dunno who killed it, it may be both Ukrainian government and the Federal Service, depending on the point of view on the event.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 11:05 AM |
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Quote:
They wouldn't run so far anyway. Also, still unclear why many have only heads burnt, as well as females lacking clothes.
We don't know now how far. As for the burnt heads and hands - that is obvious - other body parts are covered with clothes. Do you really think that they were shot in the head and then RS activists used some fire source to burn the heads only? As for people lacking the clothes - actually from the photos not only females - that is also obvious, when your clothes is on fire, you try to get rid of it. Maybe they tried to dress off by themselves?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 11:25 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 11:26, 05 May 2014.
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>As for the burnt heads and hands - that is obvious - other body parts are covered with clothes
It's not that obvious, because clothes are likely to ignite much more than the human skin. The temperature in the building struck by fire is raising very fast.
And yeah, those sunglasses also don't gain any trust. Would a man in the fire keep those sunglasses on the burning head?
pic
No. It's too hard to believe that those people just pushed their heads into the fire 'just to look what's happening'.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 11:48 AM |
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So what is your version? RS guys shot them in the heads, burned their heads and hands to hide the crime? Then put sunglasses for fun? Then RS guys escaped from fire unnoticed?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 12:20 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 12:20, 05 May 2014.
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My version is that some of the RS may have been waiting there already, or made their crimes upon entering the building, because they did enter the building.
Just watch this video on 0:20. You will hear hysteric calls for help from a middle aged woman, she is being killed by the RS. After several seconds, a Ukrainian flag is raised from one of the windows.
One voice in the crowd shouts 'Shut her up already', obviously thinking that that woman holds a rocket launcher and is dangerous to the future of the Integrity.
It's barbaric and snowing disgusting. No excuse would work for that.
According to pro-Russian sources, that woman was a pregnant worker of the Trade Union House. We are not able to check, but I am sure that the woman which cried on the video is dead.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Histeric calls for help might be because of fire. And the comments are from the outside. No proof that was the same woman and no proof that was the same window. You are operating unproved facts. However if she was really killed, of course the killers should be punished. There is police to investigate such cases. I understand that police might not be interested in fair investigation, especially we saw how they worked on that day. We'll see.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 05, 2014 02:31 PM |
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Goeddamnit use links. This is a normal forum. It has snowing swear word censorship.
Stop snowing acting like tards to each other too. Sigh.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted May 05, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Good job Maidan! you go guys.
this junta is doing now what Yanukovych should've done in the first place.
yea yea, I know, this is all Putin's propaganda. Sure.
No one is saint. both sides are like stubborn goats in a headlock.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 05, 2014 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
Of course it is safe to speak russian in Kyiv, it is safe to be a reporter or independent observer in Kyiv, it might not be safe to be a separatist because it is illegal.
How about federalization? Or "remove the army from Eastern Ukraine"-kind manifestation? Or anything that doesn't comply with the current government's position, or with its supporters, some of which are quite violent? I have troubles believing that a government which has no problems sending militia against part of the population which opposes it (and even Turchynov admitted that the population in the east supports the "terrorists", which makes them what... terrorist collaborators?) will allow free expression. You know, it's very easy - they just need to name something illegal or give it some "Russian" label and voila, it's anti-Ukrainian and all sorts of acts can be potentially justified.
Quote:
We need to understand what is cause and what is consequence. If we don't have pro-russian gunmen, then we don't have these black men. They declared their task is to kill separatists. And the way how they work is obviously not deescalating the conflict. But again, no pro-russian armed men -> no black men. From the government point of view, they shouldn't try to disarm black men, if pro-russian men don't want to give their guns. Russia has to make the first step here.
See, this is an endless loop. They have the full right to say exactly the same thing. Right Sector won't disarm = we won't disarm. Why are you waiting on Russia to do the first step? Russia can always make excuse of the Kiev government unwillingness to disarm the right wing. Kiev can always make excuse of the unwillingness of the separatists to disarm. But Kiev employs tanks, APCs and choppers while the separatists can use a few mortars and machine guns at most. Without Russian intervention, the separatists are clearly the weaker side. So here's what's happening - they won't lay down their arms using (and rightfully so) the excuse that the government is not making anything in return, the government will use the same excuse against them but at the same time will continue with the "anti-terrorist" operation and the body count will mount every day. In the end - if Russia does nothing - you may have Eastern Ukraine "pacified" but tell me, how exactly do you expect these people to live in the same country as you and call it their home after all this?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 07, 2014 08:14 PM |
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Putin "suggested" the referendum in Donetsk to be postponed, reasoning that this will help the peace talks. Could be buying time for something or looking for a way to transfer part of the tension over the more "regular" diplomacy. It can also be some sort of trap, in case someone jumps to the conclusion that this is a display of weakness. The leaders of the separatists in Donetsk said that they'll "consider" the suggestion.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 07, 2014 08:51 PM |
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 08, 2014 09:29 PM |
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@Zenofex
So I don't feel any peaceful demonstrators in Kyiv could be in danger, even if they support federalization or other similar things. I heard many reports of kidnapping or murders of Euromaidan activists or Svoboda activists in Donbas. I heard how the their cars were burnt down and similar aggresive events. Assuming those are true and at the same time I didn't hear about similar events in Kyiv as I suppose there are people in Kyiv with pro-Russian orientation. The exception might be only how Tsaryov was beaten and green brilliant was poured on Dobkin's face. But that looks unncomparable. Oh, and there was also one more incident, burning office of communist party, but I don't remember well, that did not look like planned action against communists.
About endless loop... Does Ukraine have control over black men? I think No. Does Russia has control over separatists? I think Yes. What should Ukraine do? Politely ask black men to give the guns or attack them with ATO as well?
You mentioned a very good question about living together with "pacified" people. I don't know what the government thinks about this. I'll tell you my opinion. I'd suggested to declare a referendum indeed, but this should be fair, without guns, without violence. I am OK with that. And then if they vote to separate then OK, they can separate gradually, say in 2 years. On the other hand if they vote for unity (which I believe could be a result with high probability), then all separatists will disappear.
However this scenario is unlikely to happen. The government might announce some other referendum as a compromise, a referendum for federalization or russian language on whole territory, and not only East. The other way if really get a real confrontation after "pacification", then time can heal. Younger people are more western-oriented.
About Putin saying about canceling the referendum on May 11. We now see what separatists said today, right?. That looked like bluff from the very beginning. Now everybody should notice that Russia has nothing to do with the separatists' decisions. 
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 09, 2014 08:10 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 20:21, 09 May 2014.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 09, 2014 10:44 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 23:21, 09 May 2014.
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@Orzie
Do you know why I say you are throat-deep in propaganda? Please take a look at the year when this video was published: 9 May 2013.
Meanwhile what do we see in the East?
Music conductor attacked for playing an anthem of Ukraine. This eloquently shows the attitude towards everything ukrainian from the pro-russian side.
I also heard unconfirmed information that orthodox priest was killed today and family of 3 killed near separatists' checkpoints today.
EDIT:
Another unconfirmed information is separatists attacked Red Cross organization point taking 7 men as hostages and seizing all medicaments. Normally Red Cross is intouchable even during wars. It appears somebody doesn't need rules though.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 10, 2014 08:08 AM |
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ihor said:
@Orzie
Do you know why I say you are throat-deep in propaganda? Please take a look at the year when this video was published: 9 May 2013.
What you say proves nothing, I did not deny that it was posted on May, 2013. Only the fact that a year after such people seize the ruling posts says many, many things. The reputation of the future junta had been already widely known to the moment of Maidan. They just used people's hatred towards Yanukovitch to climb to the throne.
And yes, dude, let's not post unconfirmed information anymore.
I can post a confirmed information. I am outraged. I am sorry, but I cannot dispute more or less culturally anymore. I think I will leave this thread because you seem to be stubborn and you will never learn, always denying everything that comprometes the new government, the right sector and the barbarians with firearms who lurked yesterday in the streets of Mariupol. These videos are not the only ones.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D9Td6cdhhK8#t=265]Ukrainian 'antiterroristic' army shoots peaceful unarmed citizens in Mariupol, while Western media says that separatists use them as a living shield. 4:25.[/url]
[url=http://rutube.ru/video/f095e5e609c5ba347d4649461e102c71/]Ukrainian 'antiterroristic' army fires the First Aid vehicle which took the injured separatists. Russian comments. Who now REALLY attacks the Red Cross, eh?[/url]
The so-called antiterroristic Ukrainian army shoots unarmed citizens. 0:28 and farther.
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This thread is pages long: 
