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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Ukraine on the brink of civil war
Thread: Ukraine on the brink of civil war This thread is 70 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 50 51 52 53 54 ... 60 70 · «PREV / NEXT»
ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 09:35 AM
Edited by ihor at 09:38, 10 May 2014.

When you posted a video, you was under impression that it was yesterday, yes or no? "Yes" means that somebody fooled you . That is how propaganda works.

When somebody is shooting at you, you have the right to shoot back, correct?

These guys from Mariupol ate so much russian propaganda. All the time they scream "fascists" at UA army. That's sad and facepalm at the same time.

Oh, I agree, better not to post unconfirmed information. I will refrain from doing that. Any way the information about Red Cross was confirmed. And around 2AM yesterday the hostages were released, one heavily beaten.

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 10:41 AM
Edited by orzie at 10:53, 10 May 2014.

They scream 'fascists' because they were told that they are fascists, that is true. However, the idiots in Ukrainian government didn't realize that if the army will shoot civilians, they will be even more ensured that they are fascists. So this does not mean something anymore. The Ukrainian army will now be called fascists by these people from now on. These people saw by their own eyes how these soldiers kill them.


I guess no one here can explain to me why the army shoots Eastern unarmed civilians and it is called anterroristic operation. While on Maidan Berkut was oppressed by armed hooligans and it was called 'war for freedom'. Western propaganda is disgusting in its lies, trying to say that it tells the ultimate truth and the Russian propaganda is the ultimate evil. Of course, these civilians try to arm themselves because they are afraid to die! People in Donetsk are very nervous and afraid, I conversed with some. On the video I have shown you there are no armed separatists (they exist, but on these videos concretically, unarmed civilians are being shot, which is the most snow).

The ones which support separatists are no less inhuman than the separatists themselves, isn't it? Don't you notice the nationalism in your words? 'Yes, they should die because they are SEPARATISTS'.


I give up. You are not supposed to listen. How many people should die from both sides before the world realizes the rotten nature of the junta?

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 11:30 AM
Edited by ihor at 11:43, 10 May 2014.

Peaceful armed civilians is something new to me . Your videos and my coub are the same events (if you want I can try and find full video from this coub to ensure you that is the same place and time)! Don't tell me all of them were unarmed. Mariupol was calm until pro-russian terrorists decided to capture city hall and police building yesterday. And then you accuse UA army of interfering into the situation.

Again, if you don't see any differences between pro-russian separatists and Maidan, go several pages back in this thread and reread.

Quote:
'Yes, they should die because they are SEPARATISTS'.
No, you get it wrong. I said the terrorists should be liquidated. Anyway a jail is a better place for separatists.

Quote:
How many people should die from both sides before the world realizes the rotten nature of the junta?
Ok, your brave Russia and separatists has nothing to do to the situation in Ukraine, cool conclusion. Oh, and don't forget to blame your own junta as well for the deaths in Chechnya.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 10, 2014 12:06 PM

ihor said:
Peaceful armed civilians is something new to me .


i don't mean to be an ass here, but these kind of people all over the u.s. i'm one of them.

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 12:27 PM

The ones which were shot on the video were NOT armed. And anyway, no one cares about an armed civilian. Wasn't this crap on Maidan? Everyone closes eyes when civilians have guns. Let's proceed with this scenario, if we take Maidan into account. What we see here is shooting the citizens by heavily armed Ukrainian forces. No excuses would work. Even if the crowd pushes the army to leave, the crowd is still unarmed and the crowd still consists from the citizens of Ukraine with Ukrainian passports.

For some reason Ukrainian army does not take it into account.


>Ok, your brave Russia and separatists has nothing to do to the situation in Ukraine, cool conclusion. Oh, and don't forget to blame your own junta as well for the deaths in Chechnya.

It's typical for a Western Ukrainian to blame Russia in every their trouble. I think it's even a part of Ukrainian self-determination - 'I am Ukrainian because Russia sucks' - or 'the one who does not jump is a moscal'. I hope people in Lviv will become more independent from Polish beliefs sometime. For now, nothing has changed since 1943. I sometimes think USSR should have not annexed Lviv territories from Poland at that time. At least, Western Ukrainian nationalists would be happy that USSR never touched them. Who cares about the statehood USSR gave to Western regions, really. Lviv would be the same Polish town as the others. You would have the name something like 'Maciek' and drink good beer. Not a bad future. (I exaggerate, of course, and no offense to Polish members of the forum).

Yes, no one denies that Russia is involved. However, you close your eyes to the involvement of the West which wages heavy informational war (and Russia has never been strong in info wars), lobbying the junta and closing their eyes on the atrocities held by Right Sector, and now, the 'anti-terroristic' army who kills not only separatists but also random people crossing streets.

Not even talking about their mass media cutting off the anti-Maidan and other protests (Dusseldorf carnival, many other events) in Europe, and showing only anti-Putin protests like there is no other opinion on the  West. And you say about the Russian propaganda consuming everything. Of course it exists, but I don't understand why you deny the same dirty tricks held by the West.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 12:58 PM
Edited by ihor at 12:59, 10 May 2014.

Quote:
No excuses would work. Even if the crowd pushes the army to leave, the crowd is still unarmed and the crowd still consists from the citizens of Ukraine with Ukrainian passports.
Go and try to take AK-47 from a russian soldier, especially when somebody from behind you fires at him. I wish you survive.

I won't comment about Lviv and Poland, your exaggaration is such an exaggaration.

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:34 PM
Edited by Orzie at 14:34, 10 May 2014.

Quote:
Go and try to take AK-47 from a russian soldier, especially when somebody from behind you fires at him. I wish you survive.


Same bullsnow again, promoted by pro-Western sources about separatists using people as the human shield. You even don't see any separatists behind of the crowd, but repeat the same mantra. Open your eyes.

Or that man who crossed the street on my first link got his bullet because he served as the human shield too?

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:46 PM

Orzie, did you see that coub, that I sent earlier? The same events. The guy was firing into the direction where UA army men were retreating to. You want to deny this?

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:51 PM
Edited by Orzie at 14:54, 10 May 2014.

So what should I say? I am surprised that so less people had guns. If I had a gun, I would also fire towards them, because they shot in my friends and neighbours earlier. People are outraged. The army is supposed to defend, not kill - that's why they are given weapons officially. However, they have come to kill, after all. Armed soldiers in battle outfit are not equal to civilians dressed in casual clothes. And yeah, I have already said that on Maidan there were only 'peaceful protesters', according to the pro-western mass media. Same talk.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:52 PM

Quote:
Go and try to take AK-47 from a russian soldier, especially when somebody from behind you fires at him. I wish you survive.

So you still did not understand why I said this?

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 02:59 PM

No one denies that the life of a soldier is hard. It's his job after all, and provocations can always be.

But somehow you forget Berkut soldiers who were in a much more crappy situation on Maidan. They were ordered to stand still and burn from molotov cocktails, get bricks thrown in their heads and other stuff. But they are villains because they followed their orders, while these soldiers are heroes of the Western Ukraine.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 10, 2014 03:14 PM

Maidan defended Ukraine’s sovereignty in internal and foreign affairs, whereas separatism in Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv is directed against Ukraine as an independent state.

You support separatists. So you want Ukraine to break up.
And you tell me how the army of my country should act? Leave us alone.

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2014 03:26 PM
Edited by orzie at 15:35, 10 May 2014.

I just don't support the current government of Ukraine, and that's all. I don't care about Donetsk being moved to another country or stay Ukrainian. Also, I wouldn't expect Ukraine to be 'united' where Western Ukrainians wish death to separatists. I don't think that Ukraine will be united when separatist sentiment will be depressed by force, either.

And I hate anything about Right Sector, because their ideology is obvious and told in the name of their organization. If Ukrainian opposition did not allow them to grow in so great power, I would not be so radical about it. They were an instrument on Maidan, but now their influence on the young people appears to be grown like a cancer tumor. Methods they use are inacceptable.


And in the end, the anti-soviet sentiment accompanied by vandalism on the West of Ukraine and their mantras about 'the united and non-separated Ukraine' seem nonsense to me. These people forget that Ukraine was much more separated before Soviet times. USSR restored the West back  to Ukrainian socialistic republic from Poland in 1943, USSR gifted Crimea to USR in 1957, Zakarpattia from Chechoslovakia in 1945 and others. But now the youngsters who were taught to hate everything Soviet during the last 23 years scream that Ukraine has nothing to thank USSR and is an enemy of it! Yeah, who cares about the statehood.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted May 11, 2014 09:24 AM

Quote:
So I don't feel any peaceful demonstrators in Kyiv could be in danger, even if they support federalization or other similar things. I heard many reports of kidnapping or murders of Euromaidan activists or Svoboda activists in Donbas. I heard how the their cars were burnt down and similar aggresive events. Assuming those are true and at the same time I didn't hear about similar events in Kyiv as I suppose there are people in Kyiv with pro-Russian orientation. The exception might be only how Tsaryov was beaten and green brilliant was poured on Dobkin's face. But that looks unncomparable. Oh, and there was also one more incident, burning office of communist party, but I don't remember well, that did not look like planned action against communists.
Yes, I bet you heard many such "reports", some of them are even true probably but it's quite likely that most of them are the regular propaganda, not very different from what you get in the Russian media. There are probably also many things speaking against the interim government and its supporters that you haven't heard about because nobody in his right mind will deliberately discredit himself in such a situation. Both sides are equally motivated to advertise only what suits them and spread disinformation about the rest.
Quote:
About endless loop... Does Ukraine have control over black men? I think No. Does Russia has control over separatists? I think Yes. What should Ukraine do? Politely ask black men to give the guns or attack them with ATO as well?
I think that you just don't want to admit to yourself that Ukraine, or rather the current government, does have control over the "black men". Let's think logically, shall we? They are very very likely (like 95% or more) to be from the Right Sector. The Right Sector is part of the National Guard sent to Eastern Ukraine. The Right Sector currently form large part of the militia that patrols cities like Kiev and Odesa (they are now called "special forces from the National Guard" or something like that, I've read). There has been no evidence that the government is willing to investigate any atrocities that the Right Sector is responsible for ever since February. All this quite (in)conveniently points to the conclusion that the government and its puppeteers use the Right Sector and play blind about what you would normally call crime committed by its members. I find it really hard to believe that there is an "illegal" part of the Right Sector that acts without any authorization or guidance from its leaders and indirectly - from the government.
So, in the end of the day, if you're waiting for Russia to unilaterally stop with its subterfuge and keep denying that the government has no responsibility in this situation, that'll just lead to a civil war. Then you might get real terrorists all over the country.
Quote:
You mentioned a very good question about living together with "pacified" people. I don't know what the government thinks about this. I'll tell you my opinion. I'd suggested to declare a referendum indeed, but this should be fair, without guns, without violence. I am OK with that. And then if they vote to separate then OK, they can separate gradually, say in 2 years. On the other hand if they vote for unity (which I believe could be a result with high probability), then all separatists will disappear.

However this scenario is unlikely to happen. The government might announce some other referendum as a compromise, a referendum for federalization or russian language on whole territory, and not only East. The other way if really get a real confrontation after "pacification", then time can heal. Younger people are more western-oriented.
Well, there are many problems here. A referendum under more normal conditions would be good, but I doubt that anyone will allow it. You mentioned some reasons yourself, economy-related. If there's even a slight chance the Eastern Ukraine might separate from the rest peacefully, you'll immediately get numerous groups and politicians working against that chance and in the end you will either not get that chance or it will not be peaceful.
As for "time heals" - that's a bit too optimistic. The government sent tanks against these people, called them terrorists. That won't be forgotten soon.

-----------

So, today is the referendum for separation in Donetsk. If it goes without interruptions, one option is that by tomorrow the region will probably have "voted" to secede. A great number of the votes are likely to be non-existent (there are already such reports, of course with questionable authenticity) in such a case. If Donetsk secedes "legally", Russia will have an excuse, although still problematic and condemnable from the Western governments, to "assist" its new neighbour if it calls it for help.

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 11, 2014 10:39 AM
Edited by Orzie at 10:44, 11 May 2014.

Warning - a bit of shock content.

Some more civilian deaths and injuries in Mariupol, 9th of May. People also notice a provocator with a firearm amongst them. Around 2:00.

Unfortunately, no translation is available, but the word 'provocator' can be heard acceptably good. Screams 'Skoruyu!' mean calls for an ambulance.

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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 11, 2014 11:47 AM

@Zenofex
About general attitude and "reports". You know why these reports appear to be true. Because from many videos we can see what is their attitude towards ukrainian. Take a look at that example with music conductor for example. Or why pro-ukrainian meetings in Kharkiv, Donetsk and Odesa were attacked by pro-russian people. Either there was a command from top, or somebody who control groups of people just hate ukrainian. I assume that as you said some of the reports were fake. However I didn't hear any pro-russian media stating something like: "Ukrainian media XXX stated that separatists murdered YYY, but that is false, because we have following evidences: ZZZ." On the other hand plenty of pro-russian reports were PROVEN to be lie.

About black men:
>They are very very likely (like 95% or more) to be from the Right Sector. - True.
>The Right Sector is part of the National Guard sent to Eastern Ukraine. - That is not quiet correct formulation. I would say some guys from RS are in National Guard, not RS as an organization.
>The Right Sector currently form large part of the militia that patrols cities like Kiev and Odesa (they are now called "special forces from the National Guard"  or something like that, I've read). - Don't know much about these forces. Probably true, though.
>There has been no evidence that the government is willing to investigate any atrocities that the Right Sector is responsible for ever since February. - Not sure what exactly are you referencing to. Anyway let's assume this is true.

At the same time we have points that contradict your statement. For example death of Sashko Bilyy. Or for example mass fight in Kyiv between far right activists (SNA, part of RS) and Maidan's self-defense, as far right activists wanted to hold torch march (around 2 weeks ago). Actually RS is not a vertical organization. It was created as union of several far right movements, and we can't just say one person can command whole organization of RS. Yes, we have Dmytro Yarosh who is formally leader of RS party (created after February events), but each branch of RS has its own commander. What I'm trying to say, that government can't just control whole RS, maybe some people or branches. And the main question whether government can control "black men". Maybe, but I still think NO. It looks to me that the government just wants to ignore its existance as long as black men are fighting against pro-russian terrorists as well.
Oh and I wouldn't mix National Guard and RS. The day the RS guys entered National Guard, they shouldn't be treated as RS members anymore. For me it is another force unit that has its own commander who has nothing to do with the RS.

About separation: yes, I agree, I already mentioned that scenario I wrote is unlikely to happen. Your points are reasonable.

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted May 11, 2014 06:40 PM
Edited by watcher83 at 18:42, 11 May 2014.

The title of this thread is wrong. It should be: Ukraine is conquered region by region by the russians with or without military conflicts, while Europe and the rest of the civilised world watches from afar, doing nothing or making puny threats, while innocent people die and with them the freedom of yet another country at the hands of USSR ( oops, I meant Russia).
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ihor
ihor


Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
posted May 28, 2014 09:13 AM

So Ukraine has elected a new president Poroshenko, several regions did not vote, but still his result is eloquent. Although I personally did not vote for him because he is another oligarch, however we'll see how he will try to cope with all the problems Ukraine faces at the moment.

Meanwhile chechen terrorirsts from Russia now even don't hide their faces in Donbas. Hmm, what are they doing there? Probably Russia has nothing to do with that

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted May 29, 2014 10:39 AM
Edited by Orzie at 10:46, 29 May 2014.

Of course, all the dead Donbass civilians are also a result of the hard work of chechen terrorists. They tried hard, using artillery to fire at living houses, schools and hospitals (yet, mental hospitals).

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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted May 29, 2014 11:54 AM

Orzie said:
Of course, all the dead Donbass civilians are also a result of the hard work of chechen terrorists. They tried hard, using artillery to fire at living houses, schools and hospitals (yet, mental hospitals).


the junta needs a pretext to bomb those who are against their will. a choice, either live under them or die. and what's better than "bloodthirsty dogs" of Kadyrov? like the "green men" I bet they aren't even chechens.

also I wonder how long this yak puppet of a president will last. my prediction: won't last a term.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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