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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 27, 2014 09:24 PM |
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted June 27, 2014 10:01 PM |
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the whole of the article is bull, and this ukraine thing is just kicking a dead horse.
they reap what they sow.
no amounts of treaties will save the dumb ivans from certain destruction.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 28, 2014 07:16 AM |
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fred79 said:
thoughts?
Already shared them, the whole thing is just geopolitical manoeuvring. The EU has next to no benefits from Ukraine's future membership and all of these smiling super-bureaucrats that can be seen on the related photos know it, Ukraine will get worse in short term and its ruling camarilla knows it and Russia will keep its geopolitical right to play mean if the NATO boys decide to plant another set of bases near the Russian border under the veil of "helping the democracy in the post-Soviet space". Really, for the common person this whole thing is one steaming pile of **** in a shiny box and of course nobody will realize that before it's too late. Ukraine should have joined the EU at some point - maybe after making sure that it won't be treated like yet another poor Slavic cousin, which it no longer has the chance to do - but not as a tool of certain Great Powers, which it is now.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 08:07 AM |
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how is the Ukraine any more of a "tool" now, than it would have been if it had joined before? if they cannot properly defend themselves against a larger threat, it only makes sense to get more intimidating friends. i don't see why anyone would frame their actions now in a worse light. what were there alternatives, really? or, do you mean that, had they joined the EU before, they would seem less independent than they once was? the way i look at it, it is a sign of humility to join the EU after not joining for however long. it is like they are finally realizing their mistake in not becoming part of a bigger group, to better protect their people. it's just pack mentality; as long as they're not using it to be aggressive, i don't see the downside.
although, i don't see how joining the potentially more corrupt could help ANYONE in the long run. but at the same time, i don't see the sense in trying to fight the corruption anymore, as a nation. fighting the corrupt when it comes to politics and their nations, is like stealing a glass of water from the ocean at this point; corruption goes as far as the eye can see.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 28, 2014 10:54 AM |
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Ukraine was not really independent before and it will not be any more independent in the EU. Switching a blunt overlord with a silver-tongued one isn't exactly the same as gaining freedom. The thing is, many Ukrainians, especially in the western parts, now believe exactly that and in the next few years - if nothing cataclysmic happens - the propaganda will keep convincing them that they are independent while the ruling class will walk behind its foreign masters like a good puppy, bark at whoever the masters points and bite all who start seeing the picture differently and have any power to influence the masses. Seen it already and I keep seeing it every day in my own country. In the long run, only the guys who pull the strings win, the people be damned.
Ukraine would be much better off it it tried to balance between the EU and Russia. Believe it or not, for the Moscow crew the biggest problem is not the EU - far from it - but NATO, which nowadays is an US external enforcement agency. See, the Russians have been lied to several times since the dissolution of the USSR by the good democratic community about key strategic military issues. NATO was supposed to disappear along with the Warsaw Pact but instead it grew larger and got much closer to the Russian mainland, with bases, missile shields and whatnot. And it wants to grow more. Ukraine happens to be an excellent spot. The EU is a different matter, Russia has no reasons to fear it directly, except its (too) close ties with NATO. Many of the former Eastern bloc countries - now EU members - have strong economic relationships with Russia, as do some countries in the west. For the most part they all benefit from cooperation and lose from conflicts. The situation wouldn't be very different if Ukraine joined the EU in a peaceful manner, after assessing the situation and guaranteeing its own interests in the Union via the respective treaties. What happens now is nothing like that.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 11:17 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:18, 28 Jun 2014.
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I don't really see what's bad about Ukrainians integrating with the EU?
Ukrainian people get free migration (which means they can just leave the country if they get screwed over), free trade, hopefully less corrupt institutions etc.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 11:18 AM |
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xerox said:
I don't really see what's bad about Ukrainians integrating with the EU?
Ukrainian people get free migration, free trade, hopefully less corrupt institutions etc.
And we get all their problems served on a silver plate.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 11:19 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 11:20, 28 Jun 2014.
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What problems would we get?
More people stealing your job? -.-
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 11:26 AM |
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xerox said:
What problems would we get?
More people stealing your job? -.-
I honestly advise you to ponder why. Or you can ofc google it.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 11:28 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 11:29, 28 Jun 2014.
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@ zenofex: i understand what you're saying now. somehow, i didn't factor in the greed of the other nations in return for a safety blanket for the Ukraine, into my contemplations. which is dumb(but somewhat understandable, since i've been tired as all **** most of the night, and unable to get to sleep), because i always factor in the greed and selfishness of all of the countries involved in a discussion over nation quarrels. heh, i feel like a lame duck now. 
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted June 28, 2014 12:01 PM |
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xerox said:
I don't really see what's bad about Ukrainians integrating with the EU?
Ukrainian people get free migration (which means they can just leave the country if they get screwed over), free trade, hopefully less corrupt institutions etc.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 12:16 PM |
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dem arguments
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 12:20 PM |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcYMiPMjQAk
I assume this is a good thing, we finally get to use some fistful arguments.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 12:31 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 12:35, 28 Jun 2014.
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Every day I wish and work for the death of the nation state so the United States of Europe can rise from its ashes.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 12:52 PM |
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"Every day I wish and work for the death of the nation state so the United States of Europe can rise from its ashes."
If you're trolling then I salute you for a good troll.
If you're not then I despise you as a fanatical zealot.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 28, 2014 05:34 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:35, 28 Jun 2014.
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Zealot?
A lot of issues are better handled at a federal level.
Migration, economy, basic education (like being able to study all across Europe), basic healthcare, enviromental issues, cross-border crime etc.
I don't get what the point is of keeping something at the state level when its less efficient.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted June 28, 2014 06:05 PM |
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xerox said:
Zealot?
A lot of issues are better handled at a federal level.
Migration, economy, basic education (like being able to study all across Europe), basic healthcare, enviromental issues, cross-border crime etc.
I don't get what the point is of keeping something at the state level when its less efficient.
First of all issues are NOT better handled at a federal level. The reason for why this is so praised is not due to effiency but rather for its control and low interferance from the public.
It is easier to make decisions since the public does not know, care or can protest against it.
You're swedish like me, so how would you say for example our immigration is handled? Fair and freely for everyone to comment good/bad things about it or by strict rules, media control and closed doors? The EU parliament is even worse.
The reason it is better to keep it at a state level is because it becomes more tuned to what the people of that state believe is right.
For example if you talk about environmental protection for wolves, a person from a country with few or no wolves at all won't exactly have any good knowledge of how it is to live with them while a person born in the north will have quite a good view on the topic. If you then let people decide in questions like this one it all becomes confusion, chaos and a overall great mess.
A quick comparison of Sweden and Switzerland will tell you quite a bit about what system and order that might be right. After WW2 we were equally tied in the top, now 70 years later - have a look, which is the best country?
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted June 29, 2014 07:12 AM |
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Would you also wish for the rise of the united muslim-african states? Or maybe the united asian states?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2014 06:24 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 06:28, 30 Jun 2014.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 23, 2014 03:16 PM |
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what are everyone's thoughts on this? more propaganda to escalate things/seek help from outside nations/another "mistake", etc? the picture shows the attacks coming from the center of the nation. were the seperatists near where they were hit?
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