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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 08, 2015 05:19 PM |
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there has been a talk about splitting Ukraine with a demilitarized zone as a means to end the ongoing bloodshed.
any thoughts on this?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 05:22 PM |
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Dunno. The US are definitely interested in the continuation of war since it more or less cripples anyone except themselves.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 05:31 PM |
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Orzie said:
Dunno. The US are definitely interested in the continuation of war since it more or less cripples anyone except themselves.
not just the u.s., though. any country that could benefit from the conflict.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 08, 2015 05:41 PM |
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you know what.
bleep it.
Time to restore the Grand Duchy. this mean bye bye to Latvia, Belarus, Moldova, bits of Ivanland, Ukraine, more than half of poland and some other countries that I forgot to mention here.
and place the leadership in this fine glorious leader.
that'll solve all the bleeping problems.
/epicsarcasmandcynismtime
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 06:22 PM |
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fred79 said:
Orzie said:
Dunno. The US are definitely interested in the continuation of war since it more or less cripples anyone except themselves.
not just the u.s., though. any country that could benefit from the conflict.
The motives of Russia are still unclear at the current moment. It seems that our politicians were successful with Crimea, but never had an idea what to do next. Don't take my accusations of the US personally - it only concerns NATO, CIA, etc., but never - the American people.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 06:41 PM |
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The motives of Russia are crystal-clear - no NATO in Ukraine (hence the annexation of Crimea) and eventually restoration of Ukraine's status of a buffer state. How is that going to be accomplished is a different matter and depends on what the other parties will attempt. The EU is certainly against further destabilization of the region because that would be a major threat to its security but on the other hand it's reluctant to restrain the US, who have no problem with wars thousands of kilometres away from them, especially when they're in their favour and the investments are minimal. I've no doubt that Putin will order a full-scale attack against Ukraine if he's hard-pressed but such a scenario still seems unlikely - the Kiev government is losing the war or attrition and if nothing changes, they will end up with nobody willing to fight for them, which is just fine for Russia.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 06:51 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 18:55, 08 Feb 2015.
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Ñrimea is not related to NATO on the first place. It is a direct entrance to the Black Sea and was a place for Russian Navy base which was stationed there according to the Russia/Ukraine agreement. This is one of the reasons why Ukraine received discount for gas. Yanukovitch blackmailed Russia threatening to remove the navy from Crimea, so many gas machinations were tolerated by Russia. Ukraine is still having debt for unpaid gas.
Moreover, Crimea was convenient to work with since it has a vast majority of the population being pro-Russian - if you had a business card in Ukrainian without a Russian translation, you would not be given attention, same for mass media which were all in Russian language and people there mostly disliked learning Ukrainian because Russian was more convenient for them in general. Yes, we have the same words and grammatics, but Ukrainian generally sounds more, like we feel, "village-styled". At least that's how the Western dialect of Ukrainian sounds, where all the neo-nazis come from. Crimea also has very tight historical links with Russia, and Sevastopol being the "hero city" as we call all cities which survived the nazi siege in the WWII was also considered Russian by Russians as well as very many Sevastopol citizens.
So that, Russia has created a successful operation which lead to the Crimea referendum. All the world calls it annexation and breaking of the democratic world order where all countries have their borders tightly fixed. However, everyone forgot Yugoslavia because it was too much convenient for them to forget it. I suppose, Kosovo was the reason why Serbia doesn't want into the EU too much. And I must note that in the case of Yugoslavia there was a war with blood and deaths, unlike Crimea. They remember everything. Perhaps Serbian dudes here can enlighten us more on this matter.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 07:05 PM |
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It is very related actually, the Black Sea fleet rented its Crimean base and the current ruling parties in Ukraine have expressed their willingness to get rid of it many times. A scenario when anti-Yanukovych parties take power, declare the contracts/treaties signed by him (like the Kharkiv Pact) invalid for whatever reason and later invite the new "allies" to take the vacant place seemed very likely last winter. Attempts to destabilize Crimea similarly to Eastern Ukraine were quite possible as well. The Moscow crew just decided to give no chances to such possibilities.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 07:15 PM |
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Well, basically Russia had no choice but to take this risky step when everyone realized that Ukraine is going to escape forever and NATO is expanding further to the East. It was fun to read NATO representative's quote where he said that "NATO never promised to stop expanding to the East". Well, what did they expect then? That statement doesn't calm Russia down at all, but adds to the nerves instead.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 08:56 PM |
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I think the EU and US in particular need to start arming the Ukraine army while intensifing the sanctions against the Russian economy. This conflict is at its core about the survivaal of liberal democracy as the political world order. Ukraina must be allowed to choose its own path and if that path is liberal democracy then so be it. Russia must accept that and their attempts to stop this progression should be halted using military means if nescessary. Should Russia succeed, it's the end of liberal legalism as the global political order and that's not going to make the world more free, peaceful and prosperous for anyone.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 08, 2015 09:06 PM |
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:17 PM |
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Quote:
This conflict is at its core about the survivaal of liberal democracy as the political world order
Even Putin fanboys are less awkward than this person, lol.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 09:35 PM |
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Let me hear an actual counter argument then?
International law is a product of liberal democracy. Violating it is a violation of liberal democracy. I find that unacceptable since that leads to a reduction of liberty for all. Russia has a choice. Either it ends its imperial ambitions and let Ukraine become a member of the EU and Nato. Or it gets involved in a war that it has no chance of winning.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 08, 2015 10:21 PM |
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no chance of winning? female dog please.
I think you forgot how little of a bleep does russian goverment gives about their citizens. Stalingrad campaign is a good example of this.
Also, Xerox, I thik I have a perfect career for you. come here, and along with Jonas Ohman lecture my commie goverment how to do stuff. you can even aid in smuggling arms and combat gear to Ukraine!
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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somi
Known Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 12:27 AM |
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Edited by somi at 00:31, 09 Feb 2015.
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This was spotted in rebel controlled territory
VIDEO
It is russia anti air system Pantsir-S1. Very expensive, and somewhat new system. And probably overkill for that area, so I am guessing soon the north wind will start blowing and there will be a push of pro russian rebels.
Or it will be stationed there, but it would be somewhat overkill, especially as ukraine does not have that good air possibilities, and there are other systems much less expensive that would do the job
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 09, 2015 12:28 AM |
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Xerox, what makes you think that US doesn't have its own imperial ambitions? Who and what gives the rights to the US to meddle in the affairs of another country? It's obvious that US suffers from a messiah complex, as seen from their actions by "saving" the poor unfortunate souls from tyrants. Imperialistic Britain also meddled its fingers by "educating", "saving" and ultimately "governing" the enslaved colonized people. The difference is that nowadays slavery is achieved under the guise of liberation (eliminating political enemies or those who do not think the same way, or those who will not bend the knee and be puppets) and democracy (creating chaos, war, etc. under the pretence of bringing power to the people, while in reality the puppet is placed in the position of power). When there are no more tyrants to destroy, will they save us from themselves? The US has transformed itself into a tyrant it seeks to destroy.
You also talk about democracy, without realizing that democracy doesn't exist. It is a wonderful concept on paper, but it is not applicable in practice. Never was and never will be.
Where was democracy when my country was bombed? Not a single snow was given that day by the liberal democracy. Where was democracy when they took a piece of my country? Now when the same thing is happening in Ukraine, it is not all right, but back then it was?
"Ukraina must be allowed to choose its own path..." The same (violent and bloody) way and the same path that all US-oppressed countries took? Such thinks are decided not chosen...
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 02:13 AM |
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Edited by Kayna at 02:21, 09 Feb 2015.
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Interesting video. I'd like to throw my 2cp and say that first, our higher ups wage wars ( not necessary military, but all forms of war ) every time they can, without even knowing if it's worth it or not, just for the sake of piling up problems on the "enemy". War is like a football field, the more ground you cover, the more ground your "enemy" will have to take back. In this case, the US and Europe doesn't want Russia to take Ukraine back, and vice versa. They do not need any more reason than that.
Second, from a military point of view, a country that wants to remain powerful will find every opportunity to "exercise". Old weapons need to be used before they aint worth crap anymore, new weapons and technology needs to be tried and tested. Unimportant countries can also be used as depleted uranium trash site. Soldiers need to gain some field experience. Etc.
With those two "whys", arguing anything further is moot in my opinion. Moot as in arguable.
Sleeping_Sun said:
It's obvious that US suffers from a messiah complex
I think it's a little more complex than that. A lot of citizens do see it that way, but the higher up, I believe, developped a certain fear at the end of world war two. They know they dropped nuclear bombs, and it formed a strange, twisted guilt where they fear lowering their own weapons in case they get nuked themselves.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 06:30 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 08:06, 09 Feb 2015.
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xerox said:
Let me hear an actual counter argument then?
International law is a product of liberal democracy. Violating it is a violation of liberal democracy. I find that unacceptable since that leads to a reduction of liberty for all. Russia has a choice. Either it ends its imperial ambitions and let Ukraine become a member of the EU and Nato. Or it gets involved in a war that it has no chance of winning.
International law is a product of haegemonic power of a country without the approval of which nothing in this world can happen. You are such a boy, and tell me bullsnow about the us being the world policeman. You have been told countless times that all modern Russian history includes the US hindering its evolution. You don't know that the US would like to see us dead or dependent on them instead of seeing us prosperous. You can go and lick the US ass somewhere else - all the conscious people here realize that there are no friends in big politics. There is no international law. It is made up when a nuclear power says its orders to other smaller powers.
The democracy you advertise so much is made of guns, blood and suffering. No country the US 'helped' established democracy - they now have ruined economy and thousands of dead. I wish you looked in all faces of the dead people instead of writing idiotic things. If you wish the war to continue - then go and enlist in the Ukrainian army instead of trolling here.
And yeah, if you insist on weapons, then snowing go to Donetsk where my friends live, and check these new weapons in action when they are crushing above your head, bombing the city and civilian living areas. Go, young boy. In the name of democracy.
Go to Donetsk living area, baby, and experience the highly destructive weaponry democracy on your sorry ass.
If you don't want to do that - don't snowing praise to bring the guns.
somi said:
This was spotted in rebel controlled territory
VIDEO
It is russia anti air system Pantsir-S1. Very expensive, and somewhat new system. And probably overkill for that area, so I am guessing soon the north wind will start blowing and there will be a push of pro russian rebels.
Or it will be stationed there, but it would be somewhat overkill, especially as ukraine does not have that good air possibilities, and there are other systems much less expensive that would do the job
The rebels won't make a move without a secret order from Russian government I suppose. Donetsk and Lugansk are barely to be included into Russian territory - they are most likely to remain the buffer zone. The only thing that the rebels are going to do is to capture the old borders of Donetsk and Lugansk areas (as they existed in Ukraine). Of course there are a lot of people who would like to proceed with the unifying the rest of Ukraine area, but it's barely possible, especially if we note that the rebel sentiment in other Eastern areas is generally lower, to 50% and less.
I must also note that almost all the rebel leaders who shared the point of view about changing the whole Ukrainian government and going to Kiev were mysteriously removed or retired in the middle of 2014.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 08:44 AM |
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People who pick the stupid "international law" argument usually have no idea what that law is, or how effective it is. Here's a short lesson:
There are two types of international law - public and private. The latter deals with relationships between private agents on international level, its goal is to apply regulations in a mutually acceptable way for the citizens/subjects of different sovereign nations. It resolves conflicts related to which national law should be applicable to a given situation, it deals with international treaties in the private sphere and generally manages civil affairs.
The international public law deals with relationships between nations as entities, it is a "political law". It is based on the UN Charter and treaties between the states dealing with public matters (sovereignty, borders, foreign intervention, peace-keeping, etc.). It is - by FAR - the less specific of the two laws because it's internally conflicting in a way - it tries to enforce regulations over sovereign entities without having supreme authority any other than the situational interest of these entities to adhere to these regulations. The UN may be viewed as such a supreme authority but it has no power to do anything if the permanent members of the Security Council don't vote all in favour (or abstain) of some action. The veto right practically means that if the US, Russia, Great Britain, France or China find something to be against their interests, they can just take the UN out of the picture no matter how the others vote, including the non-permanent members and the entire UN community. So the international public law has any real power only when it works in favour of the otherwise powerful countries. In all other cases you have someone crying "But it's not fair!" while the whole construct is not even designed to be fair. The international public laws also has many grey areas which allow for Kosovo-like scenarios, which in the end serve some major power's agenda. In the end of the day only complete laymen rely on the international public law to solve anything when some of the Great Powers' vital interests are involved.
And of course liberal democracy has nearly nothing to do with all this.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 09:36 AM |
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Well, I guess, he is just trolling. No sane person would write like that. He's not a patriot of his own country, so it's too hard to believe he is so brainwashed.
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