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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2015 09:50 AM |
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I am actually very curious how he got the conclusion/impression that international law is a product of liberal democracy. All of his arguments follow from that premise.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 10:31 AM |
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I guess he just associates everything positive with the US and doesn't need explanations. Fun to realize that all Americans I know don't speak like him at all.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 09, 2015 10:48 AM |
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I personally think xerox belongs with the same crowd as the retard holding the Ukrainian flag upside down, of which I posted a photo in this thread a page or two back.
same logic, and same rethorics used as well. just less usage of the terms "kacap", "vatnik", "Russian agent" and the classic "putin chuilo".
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2015 11:12 AM |
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orzie said:
I guess he just associates everything positive with the US and doesn't need explanations. Fun to realize that all Americans I know don't speak like him at all.
You weren't here when Elodin was around, were you?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Perhaps. I anyway don't approve fanboys of any establishment not argumenting their point of view.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 09, 2015 12:29 PM |
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the thing is, Elodin was(is) a stout american patriot, supporter of the 2nd amendment and many of them other good yankee things.
xerox is not. he just yaps what he's told to yap. he's what I like to call a political practicioneer of the oldest profession known to man(you know what I mean).
He belongs to the type of people who sell out their whole families for a better spot near the political feeding tray.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 09, 2015 12:36 PM |
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Kayna said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
It's obvious that US suffers from a messiah complex
I think it's a little more complex than that. A lot of citizens do see it that way, but the higher up, I believe, developped a certain fear at the end of world war two. They know they dropped nuclear bombs, and it formed a strange, twisted guilt where they fear lowering their own weapons in case they get nuked themselves.
It always complex, I admit that I generalized, which is bad, but the point still stands.
However, I cannot agree that higher ups developed a fear... they became control freaks. They would even attack their own people as long as they can channel their way of thinking. I still remember a marathon (in Boston or New York, I can't remember) when there was a great explosion and where many were wounded... or at least it was a performance that many were wounded.
Also why would they develop fear at the end of the WWII when they didn't feel consequences of war as some other countries did? They even benefited from that, the same way they want to benefit in this Ukraine crisis.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2015 01:38 PM |
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kipshasz said:
the thing is, Elodin was(is) a stout american patriot, supporter of the 2nd amendment and many of them other good yankee things.
xerox is not. he just yaps what he's told to yap. he's what I like to call a political practicioneer of the oldest profession known to man(you know what I mean).
He belongs to the type of people who sell out their whole families for a better spot near the political feeding tray.
Elodin was much older, he had life experience to sound as naive as xerox does sometimes, but regardless of how he sounded, he was no different when it comes to believing America was invading countries all over the world to bring democracy to them and help them get rid of dictators. (When in fact America has no problem with dictators, on the contrary, they back them up as long they are in tune with the US government.) I have no problem with the 2nd Amendment but the gun culture in US has become something else than the right to bear arms and being an ex-cop and a Texan, he was also a perfect example of that, so that doesnt exactly put an ace in his deck according to me, either. Anyway, he's not here to defend himself so I wont comment any further.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 01:50 PM |
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 03:38 PM |
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Saying they're control freaks is also true and not exclusive from my view on it. Anyways, I think Xerox is practicing his political arguing on you guys more than anything else lol. His goal may be to sway people using fancy and vague words?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 07:24 PM |
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If his aim is to become yet another garbage-tier politician, he's on the right path. This is the wrong audience for such blabber though, he should try in some Bible Belt forum.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 09, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Yes, Zeno, homosexual liberterian from Sweden would hypnothize the Bible Belt crowd in minutes!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 09, 2015 07:55 PM |
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Russia - evil.
US - good.
Liberty!!!
War on evil!!!
It's enough to post this and will get recruits immediately, plus it actually summarizes his posts. Besides, libertarianism and neo-conservatism have plenty in common, they'll get along, don't worry.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted February 09, 2015 08:29 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Russia - evil.
US - good.
Liberty!!!
War on evil!!!
It's enough to post this and will get recruits immediately
I have come to serve 
Where do I sign?
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 08:52 PM |
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Besides, a large piece of Ukrainian army got surrounded at Debaltsevo. The Ilovaisk story is repeating once again, with thousands of dead.
It seems that either Ukrainian generals are plain stupid, or... it's a treachery.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted February 09, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Well, depends on the number of troops there, as well as equipment and morale strength.
Could be they're attempting to make it into a deliberate strongpoint.
Although, the latter two factors seem rather crippling problems for the government forces, I doubt they could hold out long even if strongpointed.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 09, 2015 09:38 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 21:41, 09 Feb 2015.
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The morale is far from high, and you should realize that being surrounded means the lack of supplies in a very short time. It's not the people who win wars - it's logistics. I'm pretty sure the food and ammo will run out quickly and the harsh weather along with the artillery fire will do the rest. Fortunately, if the field commanders will be wise enough, they can surrender, save the people and use the humanitarian corridor (dunno how to say it in English properly).
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted February 10, 2015 08:44 AM |
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Well a strongpoint is supposed to be well supplied beforehand, or, as done in WW2, supplied from the air. Although given the AA systems in the field and the poor state of their air force, this would be extremely risky and pretty suicidal.
If they did their homework and prepped correctly, the Debaltsevo pocket will dish out serious casualties to the attacker before it can be taken.
(of course, this is all just guesswork on what competent commanders might have done)
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 01:08 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:10, 10 Feb 2015.
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artu said:
I am actually very curious how he got the conclusion/impression that international law is a product of liberal democracy. All of his arguments follow from that premise.
A lot of it of course comes from the Westphallian treaty, centuries before liberal democracy. But the UN, though ineffective, was initially an initiative from liberal democracies to resolve conflict through negotiation and atleast an illusion of rule of law instead of aggression. Rule of law is a core concept of liberal democracy.
Zenofex said:
People who pick the stupid "international law" argument usually have no idea what that law is, or how effective it is. Here's a short lesson:
There are two types of international law - public and private. The latter deals with relationships between private agents on international level, its goal is to apply regulations in a mutually acceptable way for the citizens/subjects of different sovereign nations. It resolves conflicts related to which national law should be applicable to a given situation, it deals with international treaties in the private sphere and generally manages civil affairs.
The international public law deals with relationships between nations as entities, it is a "political law". It is based on the UN Charter and treaties between the states dealing with public matters (sovereignty, borders, foreign intervention, peace-keeping, etc.). It is - by FAR - the less specific of the two laws because it's internally conflicting in a way - it tries to enforce regulations over sovereign entities without having supreme authority any other than the situational interest of these entities to adhere to these regulations. The UN may be viewed as such a supreme authority but it has no power to do anything if the permanent members of the Security Council don't vote all in favour (or abstain) of some action. The veto right practically means that if the US, Russia, Great Britain, France or China find something to be against their interests, they can just take the UN out of the picture no matter how the others vote, including the non-permanent members and the entire UN community. So the international public law has any real power only when it works in favour of the otherwise powerful countries. In all other cases you have someone crying "But it's not fair!" while the whole construct is not even designed to be fair. The international public laws also has many grey areas which allow for Kosovo-like scenarios, which in the end serve some major power's agenda. In the end of the day only complete laymen rely on the international public law to solve anything when some of the Great Powers' vital interests are involved.
I know all of this. Laws do not exist if they are not enforced. That's why I said that I support contiuned sanctions aswell as using military means to resolve the conflict if nescessary.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 10, 2015 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
Rule of law is a core concept of liberal democracy.
Yes, and also a core concept of dictatorships of all kinds.
Quote:
I know all of this. Laws do not exist if they are not enforced. That's why I said that I support contiuned sanctions aswell as using military means to resolve the conflict if nescessary.
Do tell what economic sanctions will work against a country which has enough natural resources to produce all major goods by itself and which can be relatively isolated from the West but not from the East?
As for the military intervention - why don't you suggest to your government to send the Swedish army in Ukraine, for starters?
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