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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 02:41 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:48, 10 Feb 2015.
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xerox said:
artu said:
I am actually very curious how he got the conclusion/impression that international law is a product of liberal democracy. All of his arguments follow from that premise.
A lot of it of course comes from the Westphallian treaty, centuries before liberal democracy. But the UN, though ineffective, was initially an initiative from liberal democracies to resolve conflict through negotiation and atleast an illusion of rule of law instead of aggression. Rule of law is a core concept of liberal democracy.
Rule of law is a concept of any kind of governing. And UN was established right after WW2, the core idea was not even to spread around democracy, put aside liberal democracy, it was to prevent conflict of such a massive magnitude from ever happening again. Even if you look at the permanent 5 of the security council (US, UK, France, China, Russia -USSR back then-) you will see that liberal democracy is not the premise. Now, can you guess why Germany is out?
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 10, 2015 04:03 PM |
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because jerries were split between the winners of WW2, and were nothing more than a puppet state back then.
or at least that's my version on why Germany is excluded.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 04:20 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:24, 10 Feb 2015.
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Yes, it was a rhetorical question anyway. The winners of the war wanted to prevent WW2 giving birth to WW3 (the way WW1 gave birth to WW2) and keep things stable. Spreading around liberal democracy was not the agenda and it was certainly not the premise of who was going to have the power to veto things. Russia still has veto power in the UN. Actually, one of the reasons UN doesnt work the way it is supposed to is, countries like Germany, Japan which are back on their feet or new major players like India are not represented according to their de facto influence.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 04:54 PM |
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I'm kinda jealous of people living in really safe and rich places. You know, like Australia? <3
Because here, it's cold, it's poor, and we have Russians right across the border who like to make threats of nuclear holocaust and fly with nuclear-armed bombers around - just because.
And finally, we have muppets in the government that try their best to provoke and insult the Russians in every way possible. Cause, like I said earlier, insulting the hostile nuclear superpower that's right across the border is the smartest thing to do.
Of course, it could be worse. Poorland could be Ukraine: Cold and Poor, but with Russian forces already in their country 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 10, 2015 05:11 PM |
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Described like this it actually sounds fun.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 05:25 PM |
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I dont see Russia nuking Poland in any foreseeable future though, who exactly makes such a threat? Some local ultra-right-wing politician who's practically a nobody?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 10, 2015 05:30 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:41, 10 Feb 2015.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 10, 2015 05:31 PM |
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The threat about a nuclear power is not about nuking you, but having nukes. Having such arsenal makes the other countries helpless when it comes to criticize, condemn and finally physically step in.
So in general, nuclear powers are free to do whatever they want, given they have enough skilled politicians to lure and confuse the others. See Iraq invasion.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 05:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:38, 10 Feb 2015.
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It's never that easy to just nuke a country just because you have the ammo. In case of Iraq, US would have invaded even if it wasnt a nuclear power, the nukes themselves arent much of a game changer, unless things go WW3 brutal and it's not just about interest but survival. Just look at Pakistan, US is de facto in Pakistan, too, whenever it wants to, Pakistan has nukes.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted February 10, 2015 06:26 PM |
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Doomforge said:
I'm kinda jealous of people living in really safe and rich places. You know, like Australia? <3
Because here, it's cold, it's poor, and we have Russians right across the border who like to make threats of nuclear holocaust and fly with nuclear-armed bombers around - just because.
And finally, we have muppets in the government that try their best to provoke and insult the Russians in every way possible. Cause, like I said earlier, insulting the hostile nuclear superpower that's right across the border is the smartest thing to do.
Of course, it could be worse. Poorland could be Ukraine: Cold and Poor, but with Russian forces already in their country
I think the political muppets and practitioneers of the oldest profession known to man of both our countries are having a little contest to see who can piss off the Ivan first.
whoever wins, we're screwed. I heard New Zealand is nice this time of year.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 07:33 PM |
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Galaad said:
 Watch before it's being removed
It is not a secret that one of the volunteer armed groups in Ukraine called Azov is openly neo-nazi, and Aidar is close to that. They are treated as heroes in Ukraine, especially in the Western Ukraine where Bandera is positioned as a national hero. They are most often noticed burglaring and maraudering the houses shattered in the war.
Sad to admit that the separatists also have people with nationalistic or even neo-nazi ideology. So that the best solution for me is both of these groups being removed. Wiped out. Eradicated.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 10, 2015 07:48 PM |
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Orzie said:
It is not a secret
When you compare this or what happened in Gorlovka more recently, with official occidental medias, one can see how strong the war propaganda is. I live in Paris where most people actually believe is evil Russians attacking poor innocent, free and democratic Ukraine, incarnated by multi-billionaire Poroshenko.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 07:51 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 19:57, 10 Feb 2015.
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Ah, okay then. I didn't think everything is that bad.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 10, 2015 08:28 PM |
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The propaganda in the West easily fuels the anti-Russian sentiments because they are already there, just need a spark. Probably few will admit it but Western Europe is greatly prejudiced toward Russia, some even still associate it with the USSR (especially now). I wouldn't recommend anyone to put on pink glasses when the Russian state is involved in something (typical Great Power, almost everything is considered allowed for it) but usually it gets more blame than it deserves. Cold War legacy. The information war is lost for Russia before it even began.
But propaganda can get really, really stupid. And that's mainstream.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 08:46 PM |
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Orzie said:
Sad to admit that the separatists also have people with nationalistic or even neo-nazi ideology. So that the best solution for me is both of these groups being removed. Wiped out. Eradicated.
Now now, Orzie, you must clearly see the irony in here.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 10, 2015 09:00 PM |
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Galaad said:
is. I live in Paris where most people actually believe is evil Russians attacking poor innocent, free and democratic Ukraine
I live in Lyon where nobody gives a fu*k about, but mostly about Strauss-Kahn sodomizing prostitutes. I browsed about 10 top news sites and not a single word about Ukraine on main page.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 10, 2015 09:02 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 09:06, 11 Feb 2015.
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Salamandre said:
I browsed about 10 top news sites and not a single word about Ukraine on main page.
I was speaking about the population, not the merdias.
Salamandre said:
I live in Lyon where nobody gives a fu*k about, but mostly about Strauss-Kahn sodomizing prostitutes.
The problem with democracy is not public opinion, but information of public opinion.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 10, 2015 09:02 PM |
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 10, 2015 09:09 PM |
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artu said:
Orzie said:
Sad to admit that the separatists also have people with nationalistic or even neo-nazi ideology. So that the best solution for me is both of these groups being removed. Wiped out. Eradicated.
Now now, Orzie, you must clearly see the irony in here.
There is no irony. It is logical that many marginal elements tend to participate in ideological wars. The whole Ukrainian coup was created with the great help of radicals since they are the people to throw Molotov cocktails first. It is just life.
In Donbass, there are monarchists, communists, nationalists etc. fighting on the same side for the idea of Novorossiya (some treat it as the protection of the "Russian World", some - as the fight with fascism, some - as the fight against the attackers of their home region, some - as the fight with Ukrainian nation which betrayed Russia, whatever you name it). It's still unclear what will happen when the war will be over, but for now all these different people serve one idea.
Ukrainian army has only two basic ideologies - the russophobic nationalist movement and the patriotic motive to keep Ukraine unified. Sometimes they mix.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 10, 2015 09:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:15, 10 Feb 2015.
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No, I was referring to the irony in suggesting "the best final solution" about the neo-nazis, with words such as "wiped out" and "eradicated."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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