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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Ukraine on the brink of civil war
Thread: Ukraine on the brink of civil war This thread is 70 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 50 60 ... 61 62 63 64 65 ... 70 · «PREV / NEXT»
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 12, 2015 05:20 AM

Galaad said:

I might also need to remind to some people that during WWII, 27 millions of Russians died (compared to the 500 000 Americans), defending Europe against nazism. So who's the better friend of EU, Russia or USA?

I don't think rhetoric like this is particularly helpful. Are you saying the Russians died against Germany in the name of altruism? We might easily consider what Stalin did after the war was over.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted February 12, 2015 05:43 AM

Not Russians, but Soviet people. And they suffered the most from the war, and it was them who pushed Nazis back to Berlin, with the help of Polish and other guerrilla forces at some degree, we should not forget that. With such casualties you cannot be altruistic, but as you can very well see, all European countries now live and (relatively) thrive.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 12, 2015 06:56 AM

Pawek_13 said:
@Zenofex:
Of course it isn't convienient that there are nationalists and shootings in the Ukraine but still, it doesn't change the fact that integrity of a state is endangered because of intervention of a foreign power. Besides that, the popularity of nationalists' party in the Ukraine isn't that big - during elections in October 2014 it got 7.44% of seats in Ukrainian parliament. This is much smaller support than for example Marine le Pen's ultra nationalist party got in France, so I wouldn't call nationalists that big of a problem.
How represented they are in general isn't the point, they are being sent to fight in the east as part of the "National Guard". That's like sending the KKK to suppress a mutiny in an Afro-American neighbourhood claiming you want to restore peace. Is this how it is supposed to work in your opinion?

By the Maidan shootings I mean leaks like this one. How much coverage did this story had in Poland, if any? In Bulgaria it was mentioned once or twice literally among other things in the news and disappeared.

Also, Pawek, what do you think about the situation in Ukraine in general, putting aside the "Ivan is coming!" fear that you mentioned yourself? How objective is the US stance, the EU stance and the Polish stance about it in your opinion?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted February 12, 2015 12:18 PM

Polish politics never knew how to keep their mouths shut. Sadly. Last 300 years didn't teach them anything at all.

Poland isn't a country that can project any kind of influence on its neighbors. It's mostly irrelevant running of jaws that just infuriates Russia. And that's it, it does nothing more.

Polish "stance" is foolish. It's not a matter of getting nuked because of a foreign minister saying stupid offensive things, it's more about escalating the already uneasy relations with Russia to an unhealthy point.

Not to mention that financially supporting Ukrainian forces is just a sad, pathetic joke.
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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted February 12, 2015 12:37 PM

Doomforge said:


Not to mention that financially supporting Ukrainian forces is just a sad, pathetic joke.


let me guess, to support them, they cut pensions and other social stuff?


also with the negotiations going on at Minsk, now lithuanian speaking muppets declare that they are rooting for peace, while yesterday they screamed their lungs out for further supporting the war.

pathetic.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 12, 2015 02:40 PM



Here is the breakdown of the deal:

Quote:
1. A comprehensive ceasefire in eastern Ukraine. Comes into force at 00.00 (Kiev time) on February 15.

2. A pullout of heavy weapons. The parties agreed to a compromise disengagement line. Kiev is to pull artillery and other hardware from the current frontline while the rebels would do it from the frontline as it was in September, before they gained ground in a January counter-offensive. The OSCE-monitored safety zone would be 50 km to 150 km wide for weapons, depending on their range. The pullout is to be completed by March 1.

3. The OSCE will use its drone fleet and monitors on the ground, as well as satellite images and radar data to ensure that both parties stick to the deal.

4. Kiev and the rebels will negotiate the terms for future local elections in the rebel-held areas, which would bring them back into Ukraine’s legal framework. Kiev would adopt legislation on self-governance that would be acceptable for the self-proclaimed republics.

5. Kiev will declare a general amnesty for the rebels.

6. An exchange of all prisoners must be completed by the fifth day after full disengagement. That’s in 19 days, if the weapons pullback takes the full time provided for by the deal.

7. Humanitarian aid convoys will be allowed full access to the needy in the war-affected areas. An international monitoring mechanism will be provided.

8. Kiev will restore economic ties, social payments and banking services in the dissenting areas, which it cut earlier in response to the elections held by the self-proclaimed republics. Their respective governments will resume taxation and payment for utilities. This provision is subject for further negotiation.

9. After the local elections are held in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, Kiev is to restore control over their borders with Russia. The transition may take time, which would be needed for a comprehensive constitutional reform in Ukraine.

10. All foreign troops, heavy weapons and mercenaries are to be withdrawn from Ukraine. Illegal armed groups would be disarmed, but local authorities in Donetsk and Lugansk would be allowed to have legal militia units.

11. Keiv will implement comprehensive constitutional reform by the end of the year, which would decentralize the Ukrainian political system and give privileges to Donetsk and Lugansk. The privileges include language self-determination, the freedom to appoint prosecutors and judges, and to establish economic ties with Russia.

12. The OSCE’s election monitors are to see that local elections in the self-proclaimed republics are up to international standards. The exact procedure for the elections is subject to further negotiations.

13. Talks between the “contact group” will be intensified in various ways.


Sources: RT.com and here
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 13, 2015 11:31 AM
Edited by Galaad at 13:29, 13 Feb 2015.

...

- http://www.newsru.com/world/13feb2015/minsk.html

- http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/ukraine-l-ue-confirmera-lundi-ses-sanctions-contre-la-russie-54dd286435701001a1b14756

Use translator.

Kiev officially just refused the peace treaty signed yesterday
http://www.newsru.com/world/13feb2015/boeing.html

Again, use translator.

Calling it now, everyone will blame Putin again.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2015/02/11/01003-20150211ARTFIG00459-l-armee-americaine-va-former-les-forces-de-kiev-des-le-mois-prochain.php
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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted February 13, 2015 01:40 PM

I have nothing to comment on ukraine declining the peace treaty, instead I'll link this image:

clown of the east

the cyrrilic text says "why the hell you brought along a clown?" or something like that.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 13, 2015 05:29 PM

The Russian media are not a reliable source of information for Ukraine, better wait until this is confirmed from other sources.

The French articles though... I don't know. The sanctions part sounds incredibly stupid in the context of Holand/Merkel's attempts to make Russia negotiate so I'm a bit sceptic about it. The US preparing to "train" the Ukrainian "army" sounds quite likely though, it's been mentioned several times already.

It is also still not clear if the separatists agree with the agenda from Minsk, the news range from "Putin told them to agree" to "They announced that thew won't agree".

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 13, 2015 05:39 PM

Zenofex said:
The Russian media are not a reliable source of information for Ukraine, better wait until this is confirmed from other sources.

I agree we have to wait. However, if Kiev refuses to validate the agreement, it serves too well the interests of the US.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 16, 2015 11:46 AM

Looks like the incredibly stupid sanctions part was correct.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 16, 2015 11:59 AM


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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted February 16, 2015 12:07 PM

Zenofex said:
Looks like the incredibly stupid sanctions part was correct.


It's very doubtful politicians expected the ceasefire to hold

Heck, I'm not really sure who expected the ceasefire to hold
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 16, 2015 01:51 PM

That's a great way to show good will, now the Russian/separatists side will be more motivated to uphold the agreements. Maybe the US/Poland can motivate them even more by starting the weapons transfers to Kiev officially.

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted February 16, 2015 03:01 PM

At this point I don't see the EU and US having much goodwill left
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 16, 2015 03:31 PM

You can say the same for the opposite side. The EU and the US are no more "good guys" than Russia as far as Ukraine is concerned and it's not like only Putin plays unfairly.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted February 20, 2015 08:26 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 20:27, 20 Feb 2015.

Poroshenko claims that the snipers on the Maidan followed the order of one of Putin's advisers. Moscow dismisses this as a complete propaganda crap.

That's a very serious accusation, now the blame is moved - at least partially - from Yanukovych to Putin's government. At the same time, no real evidences have been brought to the table to support that accusation yet. Nevertheless, the hole between the Russian and the Ukrainian governments seems to be getting way too wide...

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 20, 2015 09:33 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 21:33, 20 Feb 2015.

War will solve everything, as long as you never make peace.(Sarcasm)

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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted February 20, 2015 10:13 PM

Honestly the propaganda crap coming from both sides seem surreal, North Korea level, at times.

The worst part is that there are apparently people who fall for it.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 05, 2015 09:36 AM

So both sides seem to be taking unwilling steps to comply with the Minsk agreements. OSCE reports that some heavy artillery units are being withdrawn and the intensity of the fights is lowering in general. Nothing seems certain at the moment though.

There is one thing which pops up virtually every time when there is an even slight chance for ceasefire - renewed accusations toward Russia that it's transferring weapons and soldiers to the separatists. The most recent one is from the "**** the EU" star Victoria Nuland, for example here. This paragon of virtue lady was also on the Maidan to give cookies to people and some time earlier said that the US have invested a total of 5 billion in "building democratic institutions in Ukraine" - hence every word coming from her mouth bears the stamp of Holy Truth.

In parallel, Obama is being hard pressed to (officially) dispatch weapons to the Kiev crew to help the peace talks. The decision should come shortly.

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