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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 05:08 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 05:14, 21 Mar 2015.
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LOL
If the government in your country was changed to another one you don't like for whatever reason, and it made a lot of statements and laws which oppress you, would you abandon your relatives (young and old) and retreat to another country instead of protest? I must remember that protests were the first thing to happen in Ukrainian capital, which lead to the coup.
xerox said:
Following (2), you can start discussing having local referendums on secession. But you can't have separatists backed up by Russian soldiers essentially holding the entire region hostage. If the people of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk want to secede to Russia, then that's something that needs to be decided in free and fair elections. To achieve that you have to get Russa to the negotiation table and at that table, you will have to have something to negotiate with, such as sanctions.
Say this to Serbs who have lost Kosovo, kid. Double standards is so double standards...
Zenofex said:
The referendum was a joke as such, it was carried out in a de facto occupation. That said, the majority of the Crimeans would most likely vote identically even in a far more "legitimate" referendum and I seriously doubt that they will just agree to return to Ukraine (especially the current Ukraine). That makes one of the EU front end diplomatic PR slogans "We'll sanction you until you return Crimea back" quite undemocratic, ironically.
Fun is, Russia will not ever return Crimea. Even a 50-year lasting sanction war will not stop the conflict. It's obvious to everyone.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 21, 2015 11:56 AM |
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orzie said:
Fun is, Russia will not ever return Crimea. Even a 50-year lasting sanction war will not stop the conflict. It's obvious to everyone.
What makes you (or everybody as you say) so sure about that?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 01:12 PM |
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Because the people themselves don't want that. Especially if we take the current state of Ukraine into account.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 02:39 PM |
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orzie said:
If the government in your country was changed to another one you don't like for whatever reason, and it made a lot of statements and laws which oppress you, would you abandon your relatives (young and old) and retreat to another country instead of protest? I must remember that protests were the first thing to happen in Ukrainian capital, which lead to the coup.
What were these oppressive statements and laws? Besides, who said that relatives can't move as well?
I just wonder if that's something worthy of a snowing war. 
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 02:48 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 14:50, 21 Mar 2015.
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You are so ignorant about the whole situation that I even don't know where to start.
It was not the rebels who started the war. The Ukrainian government claimed that it's time to start the "anti-terroristic operation" after the protests in Eastern Ukraine which lead to deposing some cities' administration. There were no guns, tanks and bazookas in the beginning. Good morning, dude.
And you are so twice ignorant about thinking that it's so easy to "take your relatives with you" to run from war. Say this to old people who don't have young relatives or have them died, never having a physical opportunity to move farther than to a store and back home.
Many people are trapped in the regions with active battles around. Many people just don't want to leave their sweet home where they grew and lived their life. If you don't know what is home, you will never understand.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 03:12 PM |
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They were still living in Ukrainian lands. If they felt more Russian that Ukrainian, they had all the time they needed to move to Russia after the Soviet Union fell apart.
By the way, you still didn't answer my question - what were these oppressive laws and statements?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 21, 2015 03:35 PM |
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I'm not quite sure where are you getting with this. Ukraine didn't even exist 100 years ago and when the Soviet Union dissolved nobody thought that one day there will be a deep separation between "Ukrainians" and "Russians" inside Ukraine. You can as well ask "if the Albanians didn't like living in Serbia, why didn't they move to Albania?" Frankly you can apply this to every country in the world with minorities and it will still mean nothing.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 03:44 PM |
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Personally, I simply believe that moving is still way better than starting a war over it, having people die over some group's greed. If there was no other place for them I'd understand rebelling, but really - Russia is the largest country in the world. There's lots of space.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 21, 2015 03:54 PM |
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You realize that when you move to a new country as a refugee, you usually reset everything you achieved in life, your social status among the community, economical stability and your career, your HOME, your life-long friends and connections, they are all gone. It's not like moving two blocks away because there is a gang in the neighborhood.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 06:17 PM |
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Sligneris said:
They were still living in Ukrainian lands. If they felt more Russian that Ukrainian, they had all the time they needed to move to Russia after the Soviet Union fell apart.
By the way, you still didn't answer my question - what were these oppressive laws and statements?
First and foremost, it is the statement of the new government that Russian will never become a second official language, although it was planned to be made as such. This means that the Eastern regions who speak Russian at approximately 95% of population will still have to learn Ukrainian to watch TV, cinema, read books, work on administrative jobs, etc., etc.
All Ukraine speaks Russian to be frank, but the farther to the West, the more obscurely it is treated, since these people care more about saving the national language. But still everyone speaks Russian in everyday life, except Western regions at some degree which are close to Poland.
Many other statements followed later, including Turchinov's speech about jews and muscovites to be killed to purify the country.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 21, 2015 06:36 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:36, 21 Mar 2015.
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From Ukraine to Iran, from Germany to US, I dont understand how it is always still the Jews who always get targeted by facists. It's almost like some international right-wing folklore.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted March 21, 2015 06:58 PM |
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It depends, there were deplorable episodes carried out by groups of Jews that managed to make them the common enemy, other than that it's mostly an historical stigma that they carry since the dawn of time apparently...
It reminds me of how during the black death Jews were accused of poisoning the wells of cities, the population needs to have someone to throw stones at.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted March 21, 2015 07:12 PM |
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artu said:
From Ukraine to Iran, from Germany to US, I dont understand how it is always still the Jews who always get targeted by facists. It's almost like some international right-wing folklore.
This is a sensitive topic. But from my point of view, the reasons the Jews have been targeted for centuries is because of how they view themselves and act. They consider themselves to be Gods people and so from scratch they place others below them. Then there is the issue of cooperation between Jews on high positions in the society. Since they tend sit in high places, it is easy for them to get non-biased and attempting to help ones own kin. The problem is that when this is done, those who are outside the religion will be vexed. I guess one could say that as long as the society does not break, they remain untouched.
Humans have a mind of greed and powerlust. In some it is stronger and in some others it is weaker. Jews are no different in this aspect.
But please note that this does not mean every Jew is like this, I just reflect my own thoughts on why they have been so hunted here.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted March 21, 2015 10:33 PM |
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artu said:
From Ukraine to Iran, from Germany to US, I dont understand how it is always still the Jews who always get targeted by facists. It's almost like some international right-wing folklore.
I've wondered the same and I've came to a "possible" explanation that centers on a practice of their community.
When a teenager comes of age that local community gets behind the person (at least they did) and gives them a tangible-backing, not the usual well-wishes. Thus that young person gets a head-start towards success over what other ethnic groups practice. Which in my experience in the States, I saw nothing of an equal effort. idk maybe the source is just plain old envy?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 21, 2015 10:40 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:44, 21 Mar 2015.
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@Ebonheart
Well, the problem with that reasoning is most Jews are as secular as any modern people, so theological reasons on both sides (such as they killed Christ or we are God's special tribe) do not really determine much anymore, this isnt the medieval times.
And when it comes to them all sitting on top positions, that's really mostly urban legend or overselective perception. It doesnt cause prejudice, on the contrary, it is caused by prejudice.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 11:18 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:19, 21 Mar 2015.
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Orzie said:
It was not the rebels who started the war. The Ukrainian government claimed that it's time to start the "anti-terroristic operation" after the protests in Eastern Ukraine which lead to deposing some cities' administration. There were no guns, tanks and bazookas in the beginning. Good morning, dude.
So it's okay to just "despose" of democratically elected city administrations...? In a democracy, there's this thing called "elections" for that.
Quote:
Many people are trapped in the regions with active battles around. Many people just don't want to leave their sweet home where they grew and lived their life. If you don't know what is home, you will never understand.
Russia and the separatists are the aggressors here. They have the primary responsibility for civilians being trapped with active battles all around them.
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted March 21, 2015 11:37 PM |
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artu said:
Well, the problem with that reasoning is most Jews are as secular as any modern people, so theological reasons on both sides (such as they killed Christ or we are God's special tribe) do not really determine much anymore, this isnt the medieval times.
And when it comes to them all sitting on top positions, that's really mostly urban legend or overselective perception. It doesnt cause prejudice, on the contrary, it is caused by prejudice.
We are not living in medieval times indeed, although that is not excuse for their own way of thinking. I for one do accept the thinking, as long as they are aware it might agitate others.
When it comes to top positions, I am sorry to say that it is de facto like I said. If you look carefully into many of the top companies, banks and politically connected blocks, you will often find them there. Certainly that does not mean they are all doing shady stuff, just to make that clear.
I tend to look at Jews this way. They have been hunted for a long, long time. I certainly don't believe they have deserved to be so pursued, but one does not simply start a witch-hunt just "because". Also it has been going on for centuries, this fact alone should raise alarm clocks, not just on one side, but both. If the history keeps repeating itself over and over then something is not right.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 21, 2015 11:50 PM |
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Ebonheart said:
I tend to look at Jews this way. They have been hunted for a long, long time. I certainly don't believe they have deserved to be so pursued, but one does not simply start a witch-hunt just "because". Also it has been going on for centuries, this fact alone should raise alarm clocks, not just on one side, but both. If the history keeps repeating itself over and over then something is not right.
I was physically bullied at school, to a degree I think could be called assault. It went on for every five days a week, for six years.
I don't know what started it, I have some ideas, and it may be partly or totally my fault.. but at some point, as time passed, it just became status quo to beat me up, it was the reality everyone got used to.. I couldn't remember anymore why, no one could, but it didn't stop just because they had no reasons anymore.
But yeah, I'm sure it must have been my fault.. to some degree at least.. you don't beat up a small child whenever you get the chance if there's no reason..
I'm jewish by birth.
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Living time backwards
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 21, 2015 11:53 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:56, 21 Mar 2015.
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@Ebonheart
As I already said, the historical reasons are mostly religious or indirectly caused by religion such as other Abrahamic religions looking down on and restricting taking interest on loans, so Jews mostly doing jobs that are considered shameful back then or Jews always staying as a minority and never mixing up with others because of their own theological restrictions. But such things dont exist anymore, they are not the norm.
And I havent claimed there are no Jews on high positions in banks or finance. They have a long tradition and expertise on that field. I said it's not ALL Jews, there are also Jews but I see no overwhelmingly significant amount of them filling every top position.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted March 22, 2015 12:09 AM |
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OhforfSake said:
I was physically bullied at school, to a degree I think could be called assault. It went on for every five days a week, for six years.
I don't know what started it, I have some ideas, and it may be partly or totally my fault.. but at some point, as time passed, it just became status quo to beat me up, it was the reality everyone got used to.. I couldn't remember anymore why, no one could, but it didn't stop just because they had no reasons anymore.
But yeah, I'm sure it must have been my fault.. to some degree at least.. you don't beat up a small child whenever you get the chance if there's no reason..
I'm jewish by birth.
I was bullied aswell OhforfSake, so I know the burdens and pains along with the constant whispering and rumours one has to endure. I was simply following the golden rule, and stood up for a young boy with asperger syndrome who turned out to be my best friend, and for all this I had to endure more than 9 years of harassment.
I do not place too much guilt on the people who did this to me. A good man I met online said a very good thing to me "We all hated our youth and schools".
Even when I reflect on this now that I am older, I cannot say that the bullies deserves to be punished. After all none is quite "grown up" until they reach their twenties if you ask me.
Edit: @Artu, We look upon this differently, and I suggest we bury the picks here. We have been raised differently, with unique norms and during different times and countries. So our views will and should differ, but there is no need to extend this thread more for a discussion of this sort than what has been done already. I will take my leave for now.
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