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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2015 01:15 PM |
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Yes, when talking about Ukraine it makes little sense to go back to the Golden Horde but even that would be preferable to picking one event, entering denial mode for everything before that and trying to put up something that's supposed to sound serious. Which is usually what the political fanboys do.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2015 02:49 PM |
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Zenofex said:
The "who started first" is an extremely slippery thing in conflicts and is usually something chosen arbitrarily or based on bias. Courts can't help there, courts become useless on the international arena when multiple interests clash. For Ukraine you can decide to "start" as far back as the so-called "Orange revolution", or Kuchma's presidency, the dissolution of the USSR or even the creation of Ukraine after WW I. Which is the best starting point? Why would you pick any of them, specifically? What makes the other less relevant, if they are related to the same conflict? In history, the worst conclusions are made when you decide that everything before a certain point is not important and you start building some artificial structure from that point on, just because it's more "recent" or whatever.
I, eum... indeed, it's more complicated concerning politics. I suppose analyzing where someone starts and all that is ignored before that is a great way to know someone's bias?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 24, 2015 02:58 PM |
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2015 03:22 PM |
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You can also read it in English here.
You know, by now I just wonder what is Russia's final goal in this war. Is it just about moving Ukrainian border further to the west, or taking Ukraine as a whole?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2015 05:29 PM |
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Russia is not going to annex any other territories unless it is forced to do so - that would bring it no benefits. The separatists are more useful inside Ukraine, destabilizing it until the government is switched with a more friendly one. Inside Russia these people will be just extra empty stomachs which it hardly needs, especially right now.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2015 09:34 PM |
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Russia uses the separatists to create instability, preventing Ukraine from joining EU/NATO.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 25, 2015 09:55 PM |
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Edited by malgore at 21:58, 25 Mar 2015.
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Just my two cents for ongoing discussion.
For those who are interested, factual photo-video materials related mostly to the military aspects of ongoing conflict are available at Ukraine thread at MP.net. Note that both sides upload related materials, thus there is a semblance of objectivity.
Also there is a relevant thread 8K pages long with fresh news (and some crazy biased comments), but it frequently gets locked down.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 26, 2015 09:38 AM |
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xerox said:
Russia uses the separatists to create instability, preventing Ukraine from joining EU/NATO.
Insane guys from Ukraine... joining EU will make them even poorer. Just like happened here.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 26, 2015 09:41 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 07:22, 28 Mar 2015.
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Zenofex said:
Ah... that. That pipeline is very nice. It was supposed to go through Bulgaria. Admittedly the contracts for its construction were not very clear and there were suspicions of corruption in favour of Russia but ultimately it was cancelled following Brussels' orders to our government. No signs that anyone's willing to compensate us for that.
Yep... thanks to the EU now all the money will go in Turkey. Western democracy - its same as communism.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 26, 2015 10:15 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 10:17, 26 Mar 2015.
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VokialBG said:
xerox said:
Russia uses the separatists to create instability, preventing Ukraine from joining EU/NATO.
Insane guys from Ukraine... joining EU will make them even poorer. Just like happened here.
Not them specifically, but the country in general. Joining the EU for an eastern european country generally means that the majority of talented dudes will spread throughout the EU to their dream cities, while their country will be left bleeding white. Just like happened with Latvia.
Ukraine has soviet industrial standards, soviet infrastructure, etc. Joining the EU will force them to abandon all that, but build nothing instead (because it will be too hard to reorganize the whole industry). So that it will only import goods from the EU and have no export (for instance, the most of industrial export was directed to Russia before). Nice plan Germany.
And well, joining the EU means a lot for pro-western Ukrainians. They are nicely brainwashed and told they are opposite of Russians and must isolate from them by any absurd means possible. Fun is, no sane country does like that with its neighbours. We will see the consequences later. Oh well, we already see them.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 26, 2015 11:03 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:04, 26 Mar 2015.
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VokialBG said:
Zenofex said:
Yep... thanks to the EU now all the money will go in Turkey. God bless western democracy - its same as communism.
Ching ching 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 31, 2015 08:56 AM |
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted March 31, 2015 09:44 AM |
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A good development, now they also need to curb and purge all the private armies roaming around that anyone with money seems to have.
Something that only seems to have become a bigger problem with all the chaos.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 07, 2015 07:51 AM |
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 16, 2015 07:24 PM |
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Pro-Russian Ukrainian journalist killed in Kiev. Yesterday a former Yanukovych-supporting deputy also got killed. During the last few months there have also been a number of suicides of Party of Regions members and former government supporters. Interesting if the EU will comment something on that.
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 16, 2015 08:01 PM |
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I am from Romania, and we're at the southern border from the Ukraine...
Well, american army is working at us for the anti-rocket shield, and russians are mad too...
The Question isn't what fate shall have Ukraine, but what fate shall have Romania  ...
Well, I suppose that Ukraine shall be independent of Russia, because ******* russians took our land in the second mondial war, and when the germans came, they only sit, and when they needed to go away, they just took easy theyr armyes, and left. Germans are way more civilisated than Russians. So, again, Rep. Moldova shall be added to Romania how much faster it could, and well, the Russia deserves no honor !!!
(Well, personally, the Russian Peoples are innocent, but the state, and the president are simply CRAZY,because if you would see that someone is building a shield... Why are you mad ???... It isn't like you WANT to shoot him with a rocket... Now you understand ?)
So, the faith shall easily be off the Russia
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 08:29 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Pro-Russian Ukrainian journalist killed in Kiev. Yesterday a former Yanukovych-supporting deputy also got killed. During the last few months there have also been a number of suicides of Party of Regions members and former government supporters. Interesting if the EU will comment something on that.
Pretty sure that no. It's been already 8 members of the previously-ruling party killed under the disguise of "suicide" or "mysterious murder". God bless democracy. Ah, should I mention that the Day of the Great Victory holiday (9th of May) is now cancelled in Ukraine?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2015 07:10 PM |
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and now orzie took the words out of my post(  ): suicide my rosy red rump. 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 17, 2015 08:09 PM |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2015 08:17 PM |
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oooh, this thing's gonna get hot. 
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This thread is pages long: 
