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| Thread: Study: Vegetarians Less Healthy, Lower Quality of Life than Meat-Eaters |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 04, 2014 04:58 PM |
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Not really.
It's a cult classic and you should watch it but not really good.
It's a good thing to have in your arsenal though, has a lot of inspiration to later films.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2014 07:52 PM |
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Imo it's really good considering the state of the world back then and how many aspects of it have become true while others have turned to the better. How meat prices are going up, how foods are being re-enforced with vitamins and minerals, how litterature is dying, euthanasia policies are being wedged in, etc.
I like watching old dystopian films and seeing things people then thought would be a fantasy that are now reality.
But other things haven't turned out quite this way. We are introducing urban gardens, parks are still vibrant, the wealth divide isn't horrible yet.
Acting isn't to bad but it has a bit of a B-movie feel to it, it's to short to tell the full story and the ending is a bit unsatisfying.
But you should obviously see it if you haven't. As posted above said it's a cult classic damnit.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted April 04, 2014 07:52 PM |
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fred79 said:
that looks like a pretty interesting movie. have you seen it? is it any good?
Joontas pretty much hit it on the head. I can imagine that during the early 70's when people went to see it, they came out and wondered "what the hell did we just see?". "I dunno Larry, but it had Charlie Heston in it".
But its Sci-Fi and dystopian, so its guaranteed to get my attention. Just one of those movies that you should always have in your collection. And Logan's Run  and Godzilla (the 1954 version) and Planet of the Apes and Battle Royale and Equilibrium and Escape from New York.
If think you get my drift.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 04, 2014 07:58 PM |
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On topic:
You'd actually have to be a moron to think that eating meat itself from time to time is *unhealthy*.
I mean it. How can people even take people who say this seriously?
Fine, I get the moral aspects, I hate industrial slaughter, who doesn't shed a tear when they see little chickens thrown into a machine like they weren't alive.
I get that some animals that are predators soak up alot of pollution.
But meat as meat? You'd have to be a certified moron.
And then the people who add fish to it?
Well, OK. People gotta find something to do now that we all have to use our brains as opposed to our brute force, it being replaced by robots. But please...go draw or something.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 17, 2014 01:08 PM |
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Edited by Valeriy at 13:20, 17 Apr 2014.
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I've been eating a vegan diet for about 8 years now.
I think that this is a poorly written article that presents statistical analysis (comparison of answers from surveys) as if it was scientific research.
Quote:
The cross-sectional study from Austrian Health Interview Survey data and published in PLos One examined participants dietary habits, demographic characteristics and general lifestyle differences.
The really important factor that is not addressed in this statistical analysis is causality - what causes what. If a group of people have characteristic A and characteristic B we can't just assume that A causes B, because maybe B causes A, or maybe some other factor C causes both A and B.
This statistical analysis doesn't take into account whether people were vegetarian first and sick second, or sick first and became vegetarian second. For example it is not uncommon for someone with health problems to try to eat a more healthy diet to try to improve their health. This way you can get many sick vegetarians.
Also we are not told what the sample group is - is it a completely random sample of the entire population, or is it for example people who visit hospitals?
Also it does not look at whether people had higher incidence of anxiety and depression before or after they became vegetarian. It would not surprise me if statistically people who are vegetarian have a higher incidence of anxiety and depression because these are usually the people who have a greater sense of empathy and are more aware of what is not right with the world (that is why they become vegetarian).
And "lower quality of life" is not explained at all. The article says that vegetarians are more active, less fat, have a higher socio-economic status, but lower quality of life?
Crappy sensationalist journalism... 
Edit: Aron, calling people who disagree with you "morons" comes across as insulting and does not reflect well on your own intelligence. You're basically saying "anyone who doesn't think like me is a moron, and surely everyone thinks like me".
If there is reason behind your belief, try to explain this reason instead of name-calling.
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Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted April 17, 2014 01:33 PM |
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if we look at our anatomy we'd see that our digestive system is of an omnivorous creature.
besides, there are some amino acids we require and those can be found in meat only. also on all this GMO crap, but vegans are opposed to all this GMO crap as it's unhealthy in every bleeping way.
I eat everything in moderation. dairy products, veggies, fruit, meats everything edible basically. and I feel just fine. I do have some heart problems, but those are inherited from my father's line, so no stupid diet can change it.
eat whatever the bleep you like, just don't force it onto others. it's just like religion really. that's the problem with many vegetarians today.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 18, 2014 12:57 AM |
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I think anyone who believes it will be easy to demonstrate straightforward causal relationships between dietary choices and quality of life is fooling themselves. Hell, it's damn near impossible to devise an objective standard for "quality of life" in the first place.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 18, 2014 02:13 AM |
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JoonasTo said:
Not really.
It's a cult classic and you should watch it but not really good.
It's a good thing to have in your arsenal though, has a lot of inspiration to later films.
It's not a bad movie at all but sci-fi, just like comedy, usually does not age well. I think the biggest flaws were, the twist was quite predictable and it was not as horrific as they thought it would be. You go to a nice quiet room and die in peace with your choice of music when your time comes. Who cares if they turn you into biscuit afterwards, it's not like they make people eat chopped up human flesh. A lot of things we eat can be recycled human meat, plants feed from our corpses.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted April 18, 2014 06:20 AM |
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Ooh er, this thread has gone a bit skewiff - lets decide what we are talking about here:-
The original topic?
Russia?
Or Soylent Green?
Because I need to know!!!!
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 03:19 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 15:22, 18 Apr 2014.
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Well Val I think they are.
Here's the thing. I respect people who eat vegan diets. That's fine. IN fact that's better than eating meat from an ethical point of view. There are some reasons why I would prefer meat from an ethical point of view but Vegan arguments generally trump those.
What I am opposed to is anyone saying that eating meat, eating carbs, eating fats, eating veggies, eating anything in moderation that can be absorbed and used by the body is unhealthy. I just object to this and I find it moronic.
So vegans: Fine individuals.
People who bash meat eaters as unhealthy per default: Morons.
Obviously there are healthy vegans and obviously there are even healthy people who eat only meat such as those who live in areas with little agriculture due to weather.
I think part of this craze of constantly re-inventing new diets is because some self-proclaimed experts want to make money on their diet books. In fact all of them benefit from each other because it creates drama for them.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 18, 2014 04:02 PM |
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Aron said:
There are some reasons why I would prefer meat from an ethical point of view but Vegan arguments generally trump those.
If your arguments are trumped, why do you keep them?
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 06:46 PM |
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Cause I like meat and think it provides an easy access to a balanced meal.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 18, 2014 07:05 PM |
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Well, it's not like you HAVE TO defend eating meat, especially with arguments you know to be flawed. But I get it, I'm in a similar position, I might have been a vegan if the food didnt taste so good. But this is the land of kebab, besides, I usually order take in and as a vegan I wouldnt have much to choose from.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2014 08:13 PM |
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I don't defend eating meat from an ethical point of view alot but I dislike it when people attack it from a health perspective.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 19, 2014 12:58 AM |
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I still think you have a narrow-minded approach to this subject, Aron. Even if a person is mistaken about one thing they are not necessarily a moron - they could be smart about many other things. Also, having a particular belief doesn't automatically make someone a moron - they may have very valid reasons to believe it, and you might not even know what those reasons are.
When you are stating your opinion and calling everyone with opposite opinion a moron you do not come across as a rational and open-minded person. This kind of attitude comes across as arrogant and insecure. The facts behind what you're saying are "I think A and I don't see any valid reasons to think B", but where is the need to insult people coming from?
About 10 years ago I actually used to proclaim that vegetarians are stupid. I didn't really think into it much at that point.
There are many different arguments for and against eating animal foods.
Some cultures traditionally depended on animal food for survival in harsh environments, so the question is irrelevant for them. However, typically these cultures did not engage in modern animal farming practices and held the animals they depend on in great reverence.
I think about it from the modern day perspective. Many modern people have access to non-animal foods all year around thanks to shops and imports. So a modern person, unlike some traditional ancestors, has a choice and does not depend on animal food for survival.
I do not consider genetic heritage arguments - such as having some pointy teeth and being able to digest animal products - to be definitive. A similar argument is that we also have some body hair - does this mean we are designed not to wear clothing? More broadly, does every part of our biological makeup have a definitive purpose? Human embryos have a tail that measures about one-sixth of the size of the embryo itself. What is the definitive purpose of that tail? I think that if evolution teaches us anything here, it is that human beings have evolved to the point where their intelligence, biology and ethics allow them to have a choice as to what they eat and how. Today everyone makes that choice, whether consciously or unconsciously. When people change it from an unconscious choice to a conscious choice they often change their diet.
The reasons not to eat animal food generally fall into the categories of physical health, sense of well-being, positive changes in energy (for people who can feel their energy), ethical reasons and environmental reasons (ex: efficiency of food production, greenhouse gas emissions, overpopulation, etc).
All the valid reasons to eat animal foods that I've come across so far boil down to two: pleasure and convenience.
Nutritional argument falls under convenience: it may be easier to eat one or two animal foods to get a large part of the required nutrition, as opposed to putting together several plant foods to create a similar mix of nutrition. You can get similar nutrition, but it can be less convenient because it requires some extra effort.
The choice to become vegetarian or vegan requires the sacrifice of personal pleasure and convenience. Sometimes it is only for the sake of personal health and well-being, but often it is for the sake of well-being of other creatures, our planet and human civilization.
It is a common human behaviour to act in self-interest. And I think it is part of human evolution that more individuals are starting to make conscious self-limiting choices for the sake of greater good (of humanity, our planet and other creatures).
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 19, 2014 01:03 AM |
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An honorary +QP for Valeriy. 
Even though I disagree with some of what you wrote. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 19, 2014 01:37 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 14:06, 19 Apr 2014.
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You're right. The term moron is wrong.
Let me re-classify these people into two groups:
The grossly uninformed.
The self serving snake-oil salesman.
While your post deserves a QP star it sadly responds to nothing of what I mentioned in my original post. I am not saying that eating only vegan food is bad for your health or that it is otherwise bad.
We are omnivorous and as such we can digest most food types efficiently except for fibers. A thing that I find offensive are for example the red-meat craze. Red meat which is more rich in minerals and spoils harder and comes from generally healthier (parasites and bacteria are more common in say chicken meat) animals is considered unhealthy by some of these mor...grossly uninformed people or their snake-oil peddlers.
Most of these so called studies are based on statistical gathering of information that suites the researcher. Real scientific studies deal with how food is metabolized, what chemical properties it has and how these affect the various cells and functions in the body.
Various foods have various properties. Eating alot of fruit or drinking alot of fruit juice which seems to be common in vegan diets using smoothies can cause diabetes. Eating alot of saturated fats from fatty meat parts and excersising little can cause heart problems.
Adopt your lifestyle to your food choices and we can survive on almost any type of mix as long as it provides the vitamins and minerals we need.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 21, 2014 11:07 AM |
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I think I was a bit unclear in my last post. The first two paragraphs were intended to you Aron and the rest of the post was my thoughts about the general subject of this thread.
I haven't done the research on health effects of eating small quantities of animal products and I did not actually challenge your argument. I challenged the manner in which you presented this argument.
Personally, I don't know if eating small quantities of animal products is good or bad for health (this would probably also depend on the quality of the rest of the diet). Researching this subject doesn't have much point for me - even if I find research with undoubtable proof that small quantity of animal food is amazing for health I will not eat it because of all the other reasons.
I like a good logical argument and everyone is welcome to challenge what I wrote.
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted April 21, 2014 03:38 PM |
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I will mention how often its an auto laugh when the pro carnivore explain one reason why it's morally justified is because that's how it is in the animal kingdom.
Feels like a valid reason until maybe realizing we would be justifying our morals based on the creatures we consider our inferiors.
Meat as an easy way to acquire nutrients and various healthy diet needs:
Yes wherever I go to eat 95% of the menu has meat (animal flesh). That makes things very simple for the majority who accept, condone, and confirm it as the normal and right within their community. It is very hard to know how to have a vegetarian or vegan kind of diet when we were trained by our schools, families, and communities that the meat and poultry group is the standard in every meal. Very difficult to have a diet not requiring the agony that well over trillions must endure so we can kill and devour them.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted April 21, 2014 03:50 PM |
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Valeriy said:
I think I was a bit unclear in my last post. The first two paragraphs were intended to you Aron and the rest of the post was my thoughts about the general subject of this thread.
I haven't done the research on health effects of eating small quantities of animal products and I did not actually challenge your argument. I challenged the manner in which you presented this argument.
Personally, I don't know if eating small quantities of animal products is good or bad for health (this would probably also depend on the quality of the rest of the diet). Researching this subject doesn't have much point for me - even if I find research with undoubtable proof that small quantity of animal food is amazing for health I will not eat it because of all the other reasons.
I like a good logical argument and everyone is welcome to challenge what I wrote.
I'm glad we understand each other. But I find the disinformation and especially the constantly conflicting statistical studies and diets presented in mass media today on this subject to be much more insulting and damaging than calling out their advocates in terms like moron.
Someone is making alot of money on a subject that has beasically become socially accepted quackery and people who aren't into it don't criticize their friends who are because they think it is a lifestyle choice.
Nobody on this forum has advocated it so I think I haven't insulted anyone.
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