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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Earth Day
Thread: Earth Day This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 23, 2014 12:34 AM
Edited by fred79 at 00:38, 23 Apr 2014.

Earth Day

first off, happy Earth day.

second:

anyone under the impression that environmentalism(and the people involved) are actually changing the outcome of the future stability of the Earth's environment as a whole?

why or why not?

also, does anyone think that human beings effect their environment in such a way, as to change the stability of the Earth's atmosphere?

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 23, 2014 01:11 AM

Humans are not responsible for climate change, but we accelerate it to a reckless pace.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 23, 2014 01:42 AM

From both a logical and physics standpoint that makes no sense.  It is exactly the same as saying that gravity is not responsible for the motion of a falling apple, but it contributes to the accelerating motion of a falling apple.

That is to say, a force applied to a body is responsible for its motion. It may not be the only force involved, but you cannot simultaneously acknowledge the role of a force in causing a process and deny the force has anything to do with the process.

I think it's rather obvious human activity is a large contributing force to the increase in both CO2 levels and global elevation of temperatures over the last few decades. Like any other complex system, though, it is difficult to accumulate direct causal proof of structure-function relationships, but there is so much correlation evidence available that coincidence seems extremely unlikely. But combine the general scientific illiteracy of the average person plus the grave political and economic implications of global climate change and you have a recipe for denial.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted April 23, 2014 02:37 AM

A) Religion

B) History people never told about climate

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 23, 2014 02:46 AM
Edited by artu at 02:50, 23 Apr 2014.

What exactly is the position of US when it comes to Kyoto Protocol? Last I heard they were about to partially accept it or something. I think it's a really jackass move from US not to sign it since they are industrially responsible for a major portion of that CO2. Had there been an international law with muscle enough to enforce it, the standards on such things should have trumped national governments. The effects are global and the borders lose their meaning when it comes to such issues.

That's the CO2 emissions from 2006:

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 23, 2014 03:00 AM
Edited by Corribus at 03:04, 23 Apr 2014.

The biggest contention the US has had is that it doesn't place the same kind of restrictions on "developing countries" like China and India that it does on the US. Although I agree with the spirit of the agreement - that is, I think the intent is admirable - I do rather agree with this political stance. Even in 2006 (according to the figure you posted), China's output of emissions already matched what the US produces, and it's almost certain China will far exceed the US in time (if they haven't already). Most likely if a new treaty was signed that didn't excuse China and other large "developing" countries from restrictions, the US would be more willing to at least discuss the issue. But then, I seriously doubt China would agree to such a deal...

(Also, as I understand, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, and Russia are or have withdrawn from the agreement, so it's not particularly fair to single out the US for refusing to go along with the treaty.)
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 23, 2014 03:15 AM

Russia, I heard, the others are less covered by the media I guess. When you put aside China, the others have significantly less CO2, not that it's a good excuse. And when it comes to China, again not that I agree but China's reasoning is roughly something like this:
- Hey, you western guys caught us off guard with this industrial revolution for the past centuries already. And now that we're finally catching up, you try to slow us down? No way. You can have the luxury to slow down, you had it good for more than 200 years but we didn't.

Again, since the effects are global, I think the whole issue should be handled in a much more global spirit rather than focusing on national rivalry and economic growth. But knowing how people are, maybe that's asking for too much, at least for now. If things get real "hot" everybody will be willing to cooperate more.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted April 23, 2014 03:44 AM

artu said:
Again, since the effects are global, I think the whole issue should be handled in a much more global spirit rather than focusing on national rivalry and economic growth.

Yes, that'd be ideal, but it'll never happen. We look after our own interests first, the world's a distant second.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 23, 2014 08:02 AM

In my opinion, all ideas of reducing CO2 output are doomed.
That's because so many people in the world still have not much part in producing any, but want to, as well.

It's basically a question of energy consumption per head per year, and fact is, that it's increasing in the 1st world, and as long as it's increasing there, it's increasing in the others as well.

Limiting us as a species has not been a successful idea, ever. We simply need to accelerate utilization of renewable energies and we need ways to artificially clean the atmosphere and keeping CO2 and everything else within tolerance levels.

Generally spoken, higher CO2 will lead to generally more tropical climate, which would boost plant growth, which would convert more CO2 into O2 and C.

CO2 is only one problem there is with the atmosphere. We have to solve the problems actively, as we did with other things, because we are incapable of doing it any other way.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 23, 2014 11:31 AM

CO2 is the least of our worries if we look at china though. The whole industrialised part of the country is starting to look pretty horrible. According to their own research, over a fifth of their farm land has been rendered useless.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 24, 2014 01:25 AM
Edited by fred79 at 01:27, 24 Apr 2014.

JoonasTo said:
CO2 is the least of our worries if we look at china though. The whole industrialised part of the country is starting to look pretty horrible. According to their own research, over a fifth of their farm land has been rendered useless.


that's the kind of thing that'll spread in the coming years, aside from other very ill tidings. count on it. all of the technology in the world won't save us from our dumbass, self-centered selves.

and, it shouldn't. we're all going to die out like the dinosaurs. maybe not all at once, but we will nonetheless. and rightfully so. we had our chances, and we blew it at every turn.

it's ill-advised to think, that on the edge of death, we will change, in order to live in harmony with our surroundings. how many examples of that, has anyone seen? no, we just find a way around our "obstacles". humans never stop to consider: that maybe, the "obstacles" are there for a reason. human beings should have evolved to be a peaceful race by now; more in-tune with their natural surroundings, than constantly trying to circumvent them while supposedly improving on their own way of life.

the human race, for all of it's "accomplishments", should be ashamed of itself. all it has ever done, was try to find ways to make nature bend to their will, in order to prolong their own selfish lives. personally, i am disgusted.

(yeah yeah, "hypocrite!", blah blah blah...)

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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HC SUPPORTER
posted April 24, 2014 01:32 AM

Fred, why should we want to live "in harmony" with our surroundings? Nature is terrible - just look at the lives of animals. Death, disease, pain, etc - those are all natural. Those things suck, and if we can ameliorate or eliminate them altogether, more power to us.

Humans are inventive, and will bend nature to their will. Instead of natural suffering, we will live long and happy lives. And that's great.
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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 24, 2014 01:38 AM

typical, mvass. you know, for someone who can formulate ideas into sentences, i don't think you analyze them all too well.

but, i'm not surprised. neither in your response, nor that you were the first to respond. indeed, i expected such thoughtlessness from you.

it seems to be your sworn duty, to parrot humanity's foolishness, and not only that, but to actually DEFEND it. i pity you, mvass. i pity you the way i pity a dying bug being devoured by ants.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 24, 2014 01:46 AM

fred said:
it's ill-advised to think, that on the edge of death, we will change, in order to live in harmony with our surroundings. how many examples of that, has anyone seen?

In the wilderness, we were on the edge of death all the time, not to mention great disasters and famine through out all history. Everything that makes us the dominant specie we are today, language, technology, sociabality requires cooperation and rationality. There is no logical foundation to predict we will turn into suicidal maniacs in the face of close danger, IF there is even a little chance of survival.
mvass said:
why should we want to live "in harmony" with our surroundings?

Because for the first time in history, we have the technology capable of screwing the environment to the point, making it unfit even for ourselves to live in. And nobody wants to live in a world of gray concrete only.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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HC SUPPORTER
posted April 24, 2014 01:55 AM

I think what you and fred mean by "in harmony with nature" are quite different.
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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 24, 2014 01:58 AM

artu said:
In the wilderness, we were on the edge of death all the time, not to mention great disasters and famine through out all history. Everything that makes us the dominant specie we are today, language, technology, sociabality requires cooperation and rationality. There is no logical foundation to predict we will turn into suicidal maniacs in the face of close danger, IF there is even a little chance of survival.


and what exactly makes you think that human beings will have a choice, when the time comes? a ruined environment, no food to feed the masses, you think people wouldn't resort to cannibalism, if they had to, to survive? you said so yourself, they would strive to survive. and, in horrible circumstances, by any means necessary.

take a look at the nations of the world: their constant warring; trying to one-up another; dominating one another for resources.

i don't think you're seeing this from the correct angle, artu. what happens, when you push a species to the limit? they either go extinct, or they eat what they can, to survive. if that means one another, they won't think twice.

you forget that you're dealing with the most destructive species on the face of the planet. the same group of living things that killed every single person who tried to get them to live peacably. and that's just with ONE ANOTHER.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 24, 2014 02:09 AM

mvassilev said:
I think what you and fred mean by "in harmony with nature" are quite different.


what exactly does "in harmony with nature" mean to anyone? the answer should be self-evident.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 24, 2014 02:30 AM

Quote:
and what exactly makes you think that human beings will have a choice, when the time comes? a ruined environment, no food to feed the masses, you think people wouldn't resort to cannibalism, if they had to, to survive?

They would and they did, (the famous plane crash on the Alps). But from seven billion all over the world to helpless cannibal is quite an improbable fall. No change will hit us that fast (except some cosmic scale snow like a meteor or a super nova explosion) and we are adaptable. That's our trade. The Neandarthal had stronger bones and better stamina but when the climate changed, they died out. We survived by storing water underground in ostrich eggs.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted April 24, 2014 03:01 AM
Edited by fred79 at 03:14, 24 Apr 2014.

artu said:
No change will hit us that fast (except some cosmic scale snow like a meteor or a super nova explosion) and we are adaptable. That's our trade. The Neandarthal had stronger bones and better stamina but when the climate changed, they died out. We survived by storing water underground in ostrich eggs.


you're forgetting a possibility, and a highly likely one, being that ice from the northern hemisphere is melting at an ever-expanding rate(and, i've read, could contain something very volatile), and how much humans like to tamper with things best left alone:

disease.

how many commercials do you see daily, for "sterilizing" cleaners? how many doctors/actors/moms/etc are saying, "take this drug to fight off cold", "wash your hands all during the day", "spray this where there are germs", etc.

you know how we survived for so long, up until we started developing technology to heal ourselves? by having strong immune systems. immune systems that are no doubt getting weaker and weaker, with the dependence of outside chemicals, instead of allowing our body to fend for itself, to stay strong.

"but fred, people aren't dying by the thousands anymore, technology will continue to save us from bad 'ol nature."

what is the nature of a disease? to continually mutate until it is efficient enough at multiplying itself.

does anyone else here think, that maybe all these antibiotics/medicines/sterilization techniques, are slowly and systematically making us more and more vulnerable to disease?

this is just one scenario. this scenario is particularly possible, given that humanity tampers with things even after it bites them in the ass.



now, that's just disease. what about drilling into the earth?

tapping into resources that are MOST LIKELY part of a very delicate ecosystem, below the earth? what happens, for instance, when you take the air out of a souffle? do human beings really think it's a good idea to take the filler out of the earth, and that nothing bad will come of it? i think we've already seen evidence to the contrary. plenty of it, in fact.

atmospheric pressure? air temperature? what about earth pressure? the auto-regulation of earth's temperature?

am i the only one thinking it's a really BAD idea to remove anything out from UNDER us? especially when the oceans are rising?

speaking of oceans rising(and how fresh drinking water will become more and more contaminated), how about the saltwater annex machines that will be used in bulk, in the future, that will produce clean, drinkable water from the oceans? nothing wrong could come of draining the oceans either, right? "it replenishes itself; it's also a self-cleaning system."

lol, i wonder what they're going to do with all of the impurities. all of the salt.

keep denying what i'm saying. by all means. nothing is going to change, anyway.

it is beyond me, how anyone could possibly see the human race coming out on top, simply because of their technology. technology is only helping to speed the process along.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted April 24, 2014 08:15 AM
Edited by artu at 08:28, 24 Apr 2014.

A disease coming out of the North Pole to wipe us out? Problems that come from drilling? You should really decide what you're talking about here, end of civilization followed by mass extinction or serious but managable threats... Put aside the fact that it's a completely arbitrary speculation, a disease is very unlikely to finish us off since we are so widespread now, including thousands of islands.  Mass extinctions are very rare, they come by in hundreds of millions of years and even they are not that fast if you have the intelligence to detect what's coming and prepare. (Biological time scales are long! Even when we say something like Cambrian Explosion, we are referring to millions of years.)

That being said, there are some biologists who consider us, the humans the next event  of mass extinction FOR SOME OTHER SPECIES. Not exactly something to brag about but I'm sure Mvass will tell us how wonderful and amazing that is

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