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OhforfSake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted June 18, 2014 12:28 AM |
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If a girl is worth her pay she hopefully gets the pay she's worth. It's up to the employer and even with no equality laws one is to expect that the free market would mean unfavorable position for those who underpay their workers so the workers go to other companies, even rivals.
The real question here, in my opinion, is time and impact. That's why I think sometimes the government has to intervene, because if the situation is across the entire job field or it takes longer to change than any individual can afford, the free market is too slow.
But like others have said previously in this thread, the situation abruptly changed, women went en masse from going home with the children (which is not a lousy thing, it's only perceived to be so in our society today) to being available at the job market, but without the same experience and often qualification than that of their male counterparts it obviously takes time for it to even out and no amount of government intervention can even it out without placing companies in worse situations. That's what I meant by rates in my earlier post, if it wasn't clear before.
Edit:
Quote:
and feminist discourse includes both men, women, sexuality, race etc
Not according to the dictionary.
Listen, I don't disagree with what you fight for, but you use wrong language and then criticize others for your inappropriate use of terms. So alright, when you use feminism we may remember you actually mean equality or whatever you wish to call it, but that you don't realize what others mean when they use feminism is your fault alone.
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Living time backwards
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 18, 2014 12:29 AM |
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@artu Because to implement it would need a 'positive act', therefore a reason is required to justify it. Keeping to the status quo is mere omission, no reason is required.
@fred That may be, but the question isn't whether one woman should get the same wage as a man.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 12:32 AM |
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Tsar-Ivor said:
@fred That may be, but the question isn't whether one woman should get the same wage as a man.
my answer still stands. if anyone is good at their job, be it male or female, they should be paid equally. i don't see a reason why they would/should not.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 12:32 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:34, 18 Jun 2014.
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nobody suggested "implementing" equal pay, tsar?
You don't need to have a legislative bill to have an opinion on something, we're not all socialists here who think everything can or should be solved by politicans. "Should" doesn't imply coercion.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 18, 2014 12:38 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:45, 18 Jun 2014.
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@tsar
The reason would be the premise that people shouldn't be discriminated based on gender in a work place. The context is wages being different based on prejudice and gender discrimination here. So, "if one of the two CEO's work more efficiently, he should be the one getting a raise" kind of objection is not relevant to the issue anyway.
There are many simple jobs that you simply repeat a routine and get your standard paycheck every month, like being a window cleaner and so on... If wages on such jobs are unequal, it is completely justified for the feminists to protest and try to change the situation.
Also, the status quo, for centuries, was that women didn't work at all mostly, so you have a new situation in your hands, that requires new work ethics.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted June 18, 2014 12:57 AM |
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xerox said:
nobody suggested "implementing" equal pay, tsar?
You don't need to have a legislative bill to have an opinion on something, we're not all socialists here who think everything can or should be solved by politicans. "Should" doesn't imply coercion.
The issue of equal pay is valid to the topic, I don't recall implying that any of you suggested it.
Opinions are fine, but once you act on them then it becomes a different story. There is a reason why legislation is so complicated, any change has some unforeseeable impact of varying size, therefore you can't be ignorant about the consequences of your desirable social policy.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 01:09 AM |
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well i'm against social policy sooooooo 
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 18, 2014 01:10 AM |
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meroe
If a man and woman are doing the same job, then damn right they get paid the same. However, unequal pay for the same job is still happening now. Men still get paid more than women. And that is an outrage.
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Living time backwards
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted June 18, 2014 06:44 PM |
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There are some jobs that have a paycheck on experience, which means that you get a small raise every week/ month/ semester/ year you continue to work for the company. Things like vacations, maternity leave, political abductions and just generally not working for a relatively or cumulatively long time will cut into this rate of increase, since you aren't working and gaining experience like the other people in your field continue to do... Which makes a bit of sense, in my opinion. If you take off 6 months and then come back, the bro or babe that was working all 6 months should be getting paid a little more than you, since they will have kept up with and learned/ relearned the new practice standards*. And even then, there are some special exceptions that one could reasonably request. For example, a worker at a daycare takes off a few months to raise a child... Their job is child care, so since they are raising a child it relates directly to their job**. However, for the most part a vacation and maternity leave will not relate to an individual's job, which isn't illogical, cruel or unfair... Far from it, it's rather logical, dispassionate and relatively fair imo.
Having said that, experience should be the only factor that causes a difference in pay between two equally skilled (and ranked) individuals. Gender and race should not be a factor when people are being paid to do the same thing, and it's stupid that it's still happening in people's starting salary. Hell, I work in a heartless seasonal job, and ever so technically they don't have to obey... any labor laws, but even they pay everyone equally. How are there companies that still refuse to understand this? >_>
Sorry for the random rabbling... Carry on.
*For doctors and other medical practitioners, this is important enough that they actually have to be retrained for up to a month! Getting sued for malpractice is bad, mmmmkay?
**It prooooobably wouldn't work, however, since maternity leave is basically a "special" vacation made just for women... Discrimination! I want something like maternity leave!
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 18, 2014 07:01 PM |
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Gnomes2169 said:
**It prooooobably wouldn't work, however, since maternity leave is basically a "special" vacation made just for women... Discrimination! I want something like maternity leave!
Move to the Nordic countries, we have parental leave. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 18, 2014 07:10 PM |
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Experience alone isn't enough to determine one's salary, other factors like prior knowledge, ability to think or act in a particular way (related to the job position), general attitude and behaviour and whatnot play a fairly big role as well. But that's rather off-topic.
@meroe, fairness is completely fine, that's not what I'm talking about. The worst side effect of feminism is women trying to be men in all aspects that they can think of. That's an unnecessary competition, to say the least. Both genders have the strong and weak sides - mother nature's fault - but it is not really something that needs fixing, as long as they can complement each other. That's usually something that the jihad feminists interpret as "you male pigs want to discriminate us, we can do everything just as well as you, even better, shove off" and that's where they lose my attention.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 07:19 PM |
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Women aren't trying to be men, they're trying to be equal - and they can be.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted June 18, 2014 07:26 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
Gnomes2169 said:
**It prooooobably wouldn't work, however, since maternity leave is basically a "special" vacation made just for women... Discrimination! I want something like maternity leave!
Move to the Nordic countries, we have parental leave.
... This is a thing. This is totally going to happen. I'ma get mahself some maternity leave for dudes, and nothing will stop me! >;D
... Holy hell that airfare. Nevermind on that plan.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 07:27 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Women aren't trying to be men, they're trying to be equal - and they can be.
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Hayven
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Hayven at 20:07, 18 Jun 2014.
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Hell yeah! It's the best conclusion of feminism 
Generally I think that women should be treated like men because - why not? This is:
- being equally paid - because it's not fair that women usually get less money for more work
- being culturally treated - because women are nothing worse and there's nothing more to say here BUT I don't mean that they should be treated exactly like men. I mean they should be treated like humans and moreover they are supposed to be treated like women which means all the things mentioned in the mem above and way more.
- being able to do whatever job they have qualifications to do - because why not? If a woman is strong enough to be a builder why can't she do such a job? On the other hand - if a men is a good hairdresser why couldn't he do such a job?
But there are some things that I suppose to be differences: there are two genders - male and female and it should be always remembered. Men should help their wives - earn money when they can't for example but there are also some things that women do better - for example raising children. But I don't say women have to be the only parents - the husband is obligated to participate in the parenthood as much as he can.
In my opinion women are not forbidden to do a job but why do feminists force that they MUST do a job and only that which is in most cases done better by men? That's why I like the meme above
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted June 18, 2014 07:54 PM |
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____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2014 08:04 PM |
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted June 18, 2014 08:24 PM |
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Yeah that picture is damn stupid Stevie. Even feminists don't believe in that. Unfortunately, you will always have bad apples, who can ruin a lot of hard work and put movements back for decades because of their militant anger.
However, men and woman should be treated equally. The truth is they are not. No rational woman is going to complain about her colleague getting paid more than her when she knows he is putting in extra time, because that would just be plain stupid.
A true feminist doesn't want things done for her or the odds stacked in her favor. What she does want however, is a fair crack at the same things men can do. At life, at prospects etc. A true feminist wants equal opportunities for all. So that everyone can achieve their best. Fairness and the opportunities that go with freedom.
So silly misogynistic pictures like that, are just pathetic.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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OhforfSake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted June 18, 2014 08:26 PM |
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O.K. But while women may not want it, I totally don't mind if anyone wants to serve me pancakes in my bed.. just throwing it out here ^^
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Living time backwards
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Neraus
Promising
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted June 18, 2014 08:32 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 20:33, 18 Jun 2014.
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Hayven said:
If a woman is strong enough to be a builder why can't she do such a job? On the other hand - if a men is a good hairdresser why couldn't he do such a job?
Quite ironically you have correctly guessed my cousin's job
But to the point at hand, I'm a strange case, as I said before I'm for a feminism that just removes a boundary and not imposes the woman on society, but I'm also a white knight IRL so, I get called cute, gallant and a misoginist.
That summed up my previous post, since I see you are talking about payment in jobs there is something missing, the economy forces us to have maximum profits with no expenses. A woman, when she hasn't yet had children or has the intention of having more is a burden for the job giver when he could afford having a man that won't have to miss the job for 9 months and more because of children.
Before you say that's sexist remember that not every one employer is rich, some have a low income and must scrap the floor.
The first thing they can do to prevent bankruptcy is cut on the personnel and they will of course cut on those that are the most inefficient.
But that's why there are laws to prevent a woman's dismissal while she's pregnant, but that doesn't mean he/she will fire her if necessary.
Summing it up, with my limited knowledge of market laws, I want to say this, not everytime the employer that fires a woman is sexist but can actually have economic problems. (In fact I don't condone firing a woman because she's a woman and not because she may be inefficient in a big company)
OhforfSake said:
O.K. But while women may not want it, I totally don't mind if anyone wants to serve me pancakes in my bed.. just throwing it out here ^^
You sir, deserve praise for this.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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