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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Politics in the U.S.
Thread: Politics in the U.S. This Popular Thread is 153 pages long: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 20 40 60 80 100 120 140 153 · «PREV / NEXT»
Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 12, 2015 06:43 PM
Edited by Minion at 18:46, 12 Dec 2015.

Muslims condemn terrorist attacks on Paris

US Muslims Struggle With How They Should Condemn Extremism
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 12, 2015 07:38 PM

Minion said:
Muslims condemn terrorist attacks on Paris

US Muslims Struggle With How They Should Condemn Extremism


i've seen both of these. i wish there were more, and from the other communities as well that suffer when something is done in their name by a charlatan claiming to be affiliated with their group.

but this isn't the muslim thread anyway. not like there's not much else to talk about in u.s. politics, since they're all parroting that dumbass trump over and over.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted December 12, 2015 07:39 PM

Well, if we'd like to shift gears, here's a BBC article postulating that Trump is an undercover democrat

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35066940
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted December 12, 2015 07:45 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 19:48, 12 Dec 2015.

Comparisons of Donald Trump and La Pen:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35075439

With Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen surging in the polls in the US and France, comparisons between the two politicians have been popping up all over the place.

"Donald Trump is now America's Marine Le Pen," declared a headline in the New Yorker this week.

"Europe has plenty of its own Donald Trumps," responded Marc Champion in BloombergView, noting that Le Pen may have a better chance of becoming president in France than Trump in the US.

When it came to Donald Trump's call for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the US" Ms Le Pen asked a television interviewer: "Seriously, have you ever heard me say something like that?"

One answer could be that it depends on the definition of "like".

Here is a comparison of quotations from the two politicians on this and other topics.


Migrants

Trump: Donald J Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. We have no choice. We have no choice. We have no choice. (December 2015)

Le Pen: Marine le Pen calls for an immediate end to all reception of migrants in France and an immediate end to their dispersal in the municipalities of France, both villages and towns. The security of the French people renders this precaution pressing. (November 2015 )

(Trump was speaking after the San Bernardino shootings, and Le Pen after news that one of the Paris attackers entered Europe as a migrant.)

Trump: When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending the best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us [sic]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Would you accept 12 illegal immigrants moving into your flat? You would not. On top of that, they start to remove the wallpaper. Some of them would steal your wallet and brutalise your wife. You would not accept that. Consequently, we are welcoming, but we decide with whom we are welcoming. (May 2012)



Borders

Trump: I will build a great wall - and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me - and I'll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Whatever the EU says, it is essential that France gets back control of its national borders once and for all. Without borders, neither defence nor security is possible. (November 2015)



Christianity

Trump: I will be the greatest representative of the Christians that they've had in a long time. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Liberty, equality, fraternity are Christian values! France can be secular because it is Christian at its origin. (April 2012)



Vladimir Putin

Trump: I think that I would probably get along with him very well. And I don't think you'd be having the kind of problems that you're having right now. (October 2015)

Le Pen: I admire his cool head because there's a Cold War being waged against him by the EU at the behest of the United States, which is defending its own interests. I admire that he's managed to restore pride and contentment to a great nation that's been humiliated and persecuted for 70 years. (January 2014)



Climate change

Trump: Obama thinks it's the number one problem of the world today. And I think it's very low on the list. So I am not a believer, and I will - unless somebody can prove something to me - I believe there's weather. I believe there's change, and I believe it goes up, and it goes down, and it goes up again. (September 2015)

Le Pen: I am not sure that human activity is the principal origin of this phenomenon. (February 2012)



Patriotism

Trump: Sadly, the American dream is dead. But if I get elected president I will bring it back bigger and better and stronger than ever before, and we will make America great again. (June 2015)

Le Pen: There's something I will say: In the US, people are very patriotic. Their patriotism is obvious. In France, for many years, you had to fight to be patriotic. People are pushing us from loving our own country. (April 2015)



Globalisation

Trump: I'm a free-trader. But the problem with free trade is you need really talented people to negotiate for you… Free trade can be wonderful if you have smart people, but we have people that are stupid. We have people that aren't smart. And we have people that are controlled by special interests. And it's just not going to work. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Danger number one is two-faced. One, Islamic fundamentalism, which is a kind of totalitarianism in the 21st Century. The second is globalisation, which is another kind of totalitarianism, the ideology of free business with no boundaries. (April 2015)



Islamic State

Trump: Nobody would be tougher on ISIS than Donald Trump. Nobody. I will find — within our military - I will find the General Patton, or I will find General MacArthur. I will find the right guy. I will find the guy that's going to take that military and make it really work. Nobody, nobody will be pushing us around. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Bashar al-Assad leads Syria today, he leads an army, there is no other way if one wants to eradicate Islamic State than to join a large coalition including Bashar al-Assad… If I were president I would have done it three years ago. (October 2015)



China

Trump: When was the last time anybody saw us beating, let's say, China in a trade deal? They kill us. I beat China all the time. All the time. (June 2015)

Le Pen: All the big French groups chose China, where they undertake a large part of their production. There again, the focus on China for French production gave rise to one of the great unchallengeable dogmas of recent decades. The sun was supposed to be setting in France and rising in China. (August 2015)



Iraq

Trump: People are getting their heads chopped off, they're being drowned. Right now, they are far worse than they were, ever, under Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi. (October 2015)

Le Pen: The fall of Saddam Hussein led to chaos in Iraq, which has become the home of jihadism. (February 2015)



Abortion

Trump: Well, the answer is yes, defund [ie stop government funding for the reproductive health non-profit organisation Planned Parenthood]. The other, [overturning the Supreme Court ruling Roe v Wade, which affirms a woman's right to an abortion] you need a lot of Supreme Court justices. But we're gonna be looking at that also very, very carefully. But you need a lot of Supreme Court judges. But defund, yes, we're going to be doing that. (December 2015)

Le Pen: I am for freely available contraception and freely available abortion. (December 2015)



Jobs

Trump: I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created. I tell you that. I'll bring back our jobs from China, from Mexico, from Japan, from so many places. I'll bring back our jobs, and I'll bring back our money. (June 2015)

Le Pen: Only the Front National plans to give back to France those essential weapons [such as control of its national budget and borders] to help it fight in a globalised world and achieve innovation and re-industrialisation. (October, 2015)
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
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Wog refugee
posted December 12, 2015 07:50 PM

I don't know why it seems to you very important that some mufti condemns the terrorism. And what? Who he represents? Himself and that's all.

When families of the 8 terrorists from Paris were interviewed, they all told "I can't believe, my son was nice, not at all radicalized and very peaceful. He went to mosques and that's all".

What people must observe is what type of society Islam creates when in majority, and what type of conflicts creates when in minority. Because, unlike all other religions, it never introduces its self congruously, those who still want to believe that are disconnected from real world. The reality is: where Islam dominates, it does not allow any criticism of itself, hence under the garb of protecting the religion, the government censors the press further. Where is in minority, it constantly yells about being discriminated and asks for more rights.  

There are two major issues for why free speech is a disease in Muslim society:

1) Muslim communities in general are very close and inward. They are immune to hybridisation of their society with other social mindset, and hence, they fall on of their own weight.

2) Any society in which the law of land is controlled by religious fanatic will never be tolerant. Yes, this was the case also with Christianity, should we run the clock backward, but: If Jesus were the butt of a joke, do you imagine any Christian society would suffer riots and start killing each other? Like they did when the danish designs?

So far as I know, apostasy (abandoning one's faith or converting to another faith) is punishable by death only among Muslims. Yet, this is the epitome of a free speech issue.

In a traditional Islamic society, there is no separation of church and state. The state is run by the church and the Koran is the alleged source of all primary law.

They are not"less tolerant", they are manifestly "intolerant."

And I don't see how anyone can believe that those immigrating will suddenly change and become what they never were, nowhere. The fact that Europe is in this very moment roaring is quite relevant about how wrong are those still believing Islam can go along with others.  

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Kayna
Kayna


Supreme Hero
posted December 12, 2015 08:33 PM

A video I suggest people watch. It's a leaked memo among the Republicans concerning Trump :

Republican internal meme about Donald Trump

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 12, 2015 08:48 PM

blizzardboy said:
Comparisons of Donald Trump and La Pen


Well, it is possible that Trump said some truth also, therefore you can compare him with the first France party  indeed.

But let me tell you something: the national press is owned by the dominant politic clique, in France and in UK. They have all interest to distort everything about far right, both in France and UK because if the far right takes the power, those medias will collapse. Therefore, be very circumspect about what you pick as quotations, every thing that you quoted there is picked out of context, "translated", modified, and caricatured, to fit one political agenda.

And just to finish my demonstration, we have been told for 10 years that maintaining a control over European borders means isolation and fold on ourselves. That it would be a shame and an anti-cultural thing to do. Because the far right asked for it.

Today France's borders are controlled 100% because of terrorists. They waited people to be killed and only then  they acknowledged with the warning the far right gave 10 years before. You can think whatever it pleases you about how bad is the far right, continue your propaganda about Putin as totalitarian despot as long you like, but one thing is relevant today: what far right predicted years ago is happening, now.

And if you take the time to listen Putin speech at United Nations, you will find also why.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted December 12, 2015 08:50 PM

Quote:
In a traditional Islamic society, there is no separation of church and state. The state is run by the church and the Koran is the alleged source of all primary law.
There is no equivalent of the church as an institution in the Islamic world, moderate or fanatical. The relationship there is Allah - through the Prophet - to the people, there is nothing in the middle "authorized" to serve as a mediator between God and Man. The Muslim priests are theologians and preachers but their "prestige" among the faithful comes from the interpretation of the Quran which is the ultimate authority, not as members of some de facto power structure. The lack of middle man in Islam makes it a true religion for the masses which is one of the main reasons why the Muslims as a whole are such a conservative group.

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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
posted December 12, 2015 09:00 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 21:21, 12 Dec 2015.

Salamandre said:

But let me tell you something: the national press is owned by the dominant politic clique, in France and in UK. They have all interest to distort everything about far right, both in France and UK because if the far right takes the power, those medias will collapse. Therefore, be very circumspect about what you pick as quotations, every thing that you quoted there is picked out of context, "translated", modified, and caricatured, to fit one political agenda.



I know BBC isn't objective (though I think they're better than most). There are certain things they simply don't report on, whereas in the US/Canada section they can't seem to talk about anything other than Trump. You could probably visit US/Canada BBC right now and the front page will be on Trump. Try it. From the British perspective you would think it's the only thing happening on the North American continent. It's written primarily by middle aged Labour Party.

I think you're exaggerating though: you just need to ask these two candidates what their views are and they'll happily explain them. The tone is different. Trump follows American cultural conventions of "plain English", while Pen's words for her European audience are softer and involve more tongue-and-cheek bull****ing. One barks like a dog and the other purs like a kitten, but their views are ultimately very similar.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 12, 2015 09:33 PM

Kayna said:
A video I suggest people watch. It's a leaked memo among the Republicans concerning Trump :

Republican internal meme about Donald Trump


This is so hilarious. Senators and Congressmen of Washington should "Grab on to Trumps anti-Washington populism" Rolflol! "Tell them you will clean the mess that is Washington"

YOU ARE THE WASHINGTON YOU CONTROL THE SENATE AND CONGRESS! For the love of...
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 12, 2015 09:34 PM

I don't know much Trump, I only listened to that speech people linked to, about closing borders to muslism and  didn't find it primarily and openly racist, the guy had his arguments and drove through. Now the american culture and diversity is something different from Europe so I don't know how people there judge him.


But about Le Pen (first, who we talk about? Jean Marie le Pen? he was pulled out from the party he created, for continuous provocations, so now it is his daughter, Marine), the party is evolving and corresponds to the time it is moving trough. The majority of sociologists from the today's France accord themselves on one point: the label of extreme far right can't anymore design the Front National.


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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted December 12, 2015 10:00 PM

Quote:
Textual justifications are retrospective. If somebody is angry and wants to believe that they're doing the right thing by waging jihad, their mind will retrospectively & automatically justify themselves in text. Their personal whims are the chicken, the text is the egg. They don't follow religion. They follow themselves.

Also, I already explained, the cartoon is a political statement directed towards Muslims. A murderer on TV is just that: a murderer, who also happened to have radical religious motivation.


I disagree that jihadists are simply psychos who found a cause.  A few perhaps, but not most.

I think you misunderstand Islamic terrorism.  They shout "Allah is great" as they commit their murders. Actually "Allah is great" does not adequately translate what they are saying.  They are not saying God is powerful or wonderful.  They are saying that Allah is the only god and because you are not in submission to him now you die.

The terrorist attacks are a religiously motivated political attack. You really don't understand the recent terrorist attacks in France and the US were attacks ON France and the US?

The only political system the Islamic Supremists will accept is one that is an Islamic theocracy.

Unfortunately the world will not stand up to the fledgling califate and CRUSH it now.  Later the US will and will pay a heavier price for the delay.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


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Nerf Herder
posted December 12, 2015 10:06 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 22:10, 12 Dec 2015.

Right now, ISIL is a little bit of a combination of Taliban and Al-Qaeda, with McDonald's franchising mixed in. They have random home-spun operatives like Al Qaeda, but also a "home base" like the Taliban in Afghanistan, and they have some McDonalds franchising mixed in because any radical Islamic group around the world can sprout up and loosely affiliate itself with ISIL. It's happened in Libya, and it's happened in Nigeria with Boko Haram, who are now considered the West African arm of ISIL.

But we need to understand that it is a loose affiliation. Boko Haram and IS in Iraq came about separately, and have affiliated themselves with one another only in retrospect. They both do their own thing.

The two terrorists in California. They didn't get personally trained by ISIL and then sent to America. They got radicalized and then went about their massacre. It's something that is happening through the internet.
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Elodin
Elodin


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Free Thinker
posted December 12, 2015 11:52 PM

Quote:
The two terrorists in California. They didn't get personally trained by ISIL and then sent to America. They got radicalized and then went about their massacre. It's something that is happening through the internet.


All the facts have not been determined yet but they were both radicals before marriage and the wife went to a radical mosque overseas.

Today the FBI found the hard drive the terrorists three in a lake.  They are also getting data from crushed cell phones. And the friend-relative who bought the guns for them is singing like a canary.  So we will have more answers soon.

All Islamic terrorist groups are just slightly different flavors of Islamic supremism.
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Atronach
Atronach


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Fired Hero
posted December 13, 2015 12:42 AM

The history of US interventions in the Middle East doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to not mess things up, but ISIS is one of those rare cases where it can't get much worse. It's one of the most evil currently existing regimes, apart from maybe North Korea. The US doesn't have to (and shouldn't) occupy the area, but annihilating ISIS would be worth it.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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Qapla'
posted December 13, 2015 09:58 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 10:23, 13 Dec 2015.

I am not asking for anyone to evaluate my opnion, but anyway, between socialist America and hawkish America, I would prefer the second, slightly.

And between another GOP nominee, not Trump, and Hillary or Sanders, I would prefer the first, any time.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 13, 2015 08:48 PM
Edited by Minion at 20:51, 13 Dec 2015.

This is from Europe but since Le Pen has been discussed already I think it is appropriate here.

BBC: "France's far-right National Front (FN) has been beaten into third place in the second round of regional elections, exit polls indicate.

Early results suggest the party failed to win a single region, despite leading in six of 13 regions in the first round of votes a week ago."

Trump next? There is hope ;P
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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Qapla'
posted December 13, 2015 09:06 PM

It's not as much that I think Trump is dangerous, although I think there is more potential danger with him as the President, but if he's the nominee for the Republicans, he will not win a majority in the election in November, surely not.

Now, I speak this also from the outside of the U.S.  so I may be right or I may be completely wrong.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
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Wog refugee
posted December 13, 2015 09:09 PM

This is not necessarily a good thing, because it shows how democracy fails to under cover alliances and arrangements. Where FN had the lead, the leftist candidate retired so his voices now went to right, which means "you retire here, you vote for me, I retire there, I vote for you", sorta political cheats.

In this not very subtle game, there is only one looser, it is the people. Because people vote for a program, while here they voted just to resist to far right and save their candidates asses. So their situation will be same as in the last 5 years and will be funny to see them continue to whine and all the usual bickering.

Hope? I think there is no longer hope for Europe, if it continues the way it did the last decade, it will die and decompose slowly.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 13, 2015 09:49 PM

I'm not so sure about that. A three way race is always horrible. That is why Republicans fear Trumps independent run so much. It would GUARANTEE a Democratic nominee victory because Republicans would split their vote.  
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