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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 03:59 PM |
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That is not correct. We have now end of July and until a week or so ago, Trump basically ridiculed face masks - when it's pretty clear that face masks massively reduce the risk, and clear for a very long time. And that's not the only thing that he mishandled - having an expert and then trying to undermine him and not consulting him when the expert's opinion isn't what he wants to hear, for example; not helping with federal resources, where necessary - it's a long list.
I also disagree with you about the numbers. This is for example excess mortality in the UK. The curves are pretty clear. This are the pooled numbers of 23 European countries - now what do you think how this might have looked, if nothing had been done?
We'll doubtlessly see how excess mortality looks in the US.
So, yes, there ARE metric to look into this, and, no, it's not propaganda. It's propaganda and dishonest to generally discount the numbers and statistics that ARE there.
Moreover, this isn't a question of what will or will not be analyzed in how many years - it's just not possible, because there are too many interdependencies and the economy is too globalized. This whole mess has been a shock for many people, and a sizable part of them is simply changing their behavior. You might say, people are in general having less fun with their traditional life - it's just not the same anymore, no matter the measures of any government.
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 04:53 PM |
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Excess mortality on its own proves nothing, it could be caused BY the counter-measures themselves due to bad organization or other factors. For example - you close a hospital due to detected infection among the personnel and nobody can get to it, urgent cases including. Or you require PCRs to be performed before you're accepted into the hospital for ANY reason. Or other such horrendous bull**** which could individual per country or per region. Take a look on some other graphs about the excess mortality and its interpretation, there are many such around the interwebz, not even counting the fact that there's no excess mortality in many countries which have not introduced any counter-measures or something comparable to what you have in the Trump states. I think I also mentioned in the other thread on the matter, you have no baseline to say that this or that helps because you don't even know when the virus appeared among the population - you are just assuming, with literally zero scientific argumentation, that it appeared when you started testing, which is... well, it should be obvious what it is.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 05:23 PM |
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That's complete nonsense. We are talking about a couple 100.000 excessive deaths here in Europe in just a couple of weeks. It's just denying the obvious.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 30, 2020 07:07 PM |
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Novel coronavirus is more virulent and has much higher rates of people being in serious condition or killed.
USA had a bit of a jumpstart to take preventative measures since it was concentrated in NYC, Seattle, etc. Trump has repeatedly sent a bad message regarding responsible behavior. Now as of July 30th we have roughly the same deaths per million people as France, and will probably pass Italy before the end of the summer, which was the first major epicenter other than China for the virus. This was an avoidable outcome.
Your view that the person in the White House doesn't make a significant impact on the country is quite bizarre imo
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fred79
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posted July 30, 2020 07:10 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:24, 30 Jul 2020.
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Hc leftist: Evil orange bad man who beat saint hillary, Trump, "mishandled" the mask-urgency by ridiculing it. Lol.
Another hc leftist: "Trump repeatedly sent a bad message regarding responsible behavior".
Remember when Trump wanted to close down incoming flights from certain countries before the pandemic kicked off, and was criticized by the left for being racist?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Now the left are saying Trump mishandled the pandemic, after they encouraged all the riots, marches, etc.
Who tf listens to any president and follows their instructions? Lol. I'll repeat myself: it's not important when a president(or ANY politician) SAYS something. What MATTERS, is what they DO with their power, for the benefit of their country.
And that person just can't seem to get it right. And why? Because he's bending over backward trying to help people who hate him.
But HE'S the bad guy. Yeah.
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verriker
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posted July 30, 2020 08:06 PM |
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if you want astroturf for the Democrats by making ridiculous joke posts you need to rant about the rightists not the leftists, you got the wrong direction and a tiny audience here, such bad astroturfing this is why the stupid Democrats couldn't even beat Family Guy lol
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 10:02 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
That's complete nonsense. We are talking about a couple 100.000 excessive deaths here in Europe in just a couple of weeks. It's just denying the obvious.
That's a sound argument backed up with facts. 
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 30, 2020 10:24 PM |
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The flu doesn't kill 700k people in half a year, and that is WITH various shutdowns.
The actual number probably being much higher. Africa cares more about locusts at the moment.
The data in the USA is clear that states which are proactive towards the virus are clearing up while Governor De Santis is being forced to shut down his state because of his administration's flippancy and arrogance. GOP governors in general are taking a bad blow because of their COVID response and so is the president.
I'm not going to keep arguing this point. You can agree or disagree with the shutdowns but there isn't a leg to stand on comparing the flu to the new COVID.
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 10:40 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:58, 30 Jul 2020.
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Neither does the COVID, until you can prove that it has killed all of these people. But hey, evidence is not that cool anymore, you can get the best truth there is from watching TV, so why bother? 
Edit following blizz's edit: actually, it's all about the counter-measures, not about the virus. The virus is here and there's (allegedly) no medicine, period. The question is what is being be done about that and if what you're doing doesn't cause more harm than good - this is where the huge disagreement is and this is where all the anti-someone/something barrages take their ammo from. No sane person would disagree that something should be done personally and collectively as health is something incredibly important to every individual, however this is where the health topic ends and where politics start. So, if you claim that lockdowns help, you have to prove it, likewise if you claim that they don't do s***, you also have to prove it. So far there have been many claims and little to no proofs - yet people seem to be incredibly eager to jump on some fanboy wagon when the claim in question is against someone or something they don't like. It's hardly surprising but that doesn't make it any more reasonable. Or like I've already said - propaganda, not arguments.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 30, 2020 10:53 PM |
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Massachusetts is having some days with 0 COVID deaths while people in the south are dying in the thousands. Yes, this is partially cultural because the south is less educated, less informed, and in general more susceptible to believing in pseudoscience.
The policies matter though because governors have the ability to issue emergency orders and GOP drag their feet on this. The theory that the executives in office make no difference and that one is the same as another is hogwash and the data demonstrates it.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 10:53 PM |
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No, that's bullsh!t. Your point is that all that excess mortality in all European countries that happen to coincide with covid MIGHT BE collateral damage? Did you drink fred's cocktail or something?
That's utterly CRAZY. It doesn't even need consideration. It's plain bonkers.
EDIT: The edit doesn't make it any better. It would seem that you have been sleeping the last 3 months or something.
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Minion
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posted July 30, 2020 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 23:02, 30 Jul 2020.
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I am also honestly perplexed by Zenos, ahem, "point"... That all have done equally well in this pandemic, don't criticize anyone!
Edit: scrapped hoax part
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Zenofex
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posted July 30, 2020 11:12 PM |
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You guys are obviously reading only what you want to read and interpret it to suit what you like to think. I think I made it perfectly clear that I'm not considering anything a hoax or I'm denying the existence of the virus or that it's killing people or any other nonsense that will fit nicely in the simple explanation in your heads. It's about something completely different - what are the facts and how they are interpreted. I wanted evidences for JJ's interpretation of the facts for example and he says that there have been excess deaths. Cool stuff, but it doesn't end here - you still have to explain where do these excess deaths come from, which is certainly not the same thing as assuming they are all related to the virus. Or why they are not observed in each and every country which has registered infections. Or they are not proportionate to how restrictive are the lockdowns. Or why since the lift of the restrictions in many countries there has been no death rate explosions despite the allegedly increased infection rate and a hundred other things. See, you have some work to do if you're about to participate in a discussion, for the distilled version of truth one can always go read the Bible.
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Minion
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posted July 30, 2020 11:16 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 23:19, 30 Jul 2020.
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Just because you don't accept all the deaths that are attributed to Covid as valid, does not mean they are not. Where is YOUR proof? Around the world the best people are working on it, but you see a conspiracy right?
What is this AGENDA that governments around the world have to do a lockdowns? Or just in general to fake the seriousness of covid 19? It is BAD for economy, which is main concern of most governments. Start answering those and then lets talk.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 30, 2020 11:26 PM |
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The virus isn't brand new anymore and they've had opportunities to do a lot of autopsies. COVID is not the flu.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1HTionnTT9I
Edit: Nevermind on the last part. Florida's DOH are being noobs.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 30, 2020 11:28 PM |
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You'd think that a country like CHINA would ignore the virus and just let some people die while not hurting economy, while you'd expect a country like the USA to avoid deaths...
Yeah, well.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 31, 2020 12:16 AM |
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Zenofex said:
Or why they are not observed in each and every country which has registered infections. Or they are not proportionate to how restrictive are the lockdowns. Or why since the lift of the restrictions in many countries there has been no death rate explosions despite the allegedly increased infection rate and a hundred other things
Everything you said is incorrect.
What are the other hundred things?
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Zenofex
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posted July 31, 2020 09:22 AM |
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Minion said:
Just because you don't accept all the deaths that are attributed to Covid as valid, does not mean they are not. Where is YOUR proof? Around the world the best people are working on it, but you see a conspiracy right?
What is this AGENDA that governments around the world have to do a lockdowns? Or just in general to fake the seriousness of covid 19? It is BAD for economy, which is main concern of most governments. Start answering those and then lets talk.
To begin with, instead of proving your point with arguments, you ask me to prove mine, which means that you assume you're right by default and I'm wrong. I can assume the same for my point. Where would that lead?
Second, I don't think I've mentioned anything about global agenda anywhere, have I? I know it would have been very easy if I had because that would automatically bring forth the "conspiracy junkie" counter. Like it or not, that's not where I come from though.
Third, there is no such thing as "the governments" as a collective body, there are individual governments. Some are independent in terms of foreign relations, some are not. Each has its own goals in this situation and can benefit from it in certain way. How exactly requires analyzing them one by one. Your focus seems to be on the "faking" part which is not even the correct word to use as you don't need to fake anything because there is nothing set in stone to re-shape to your liking. Do you know how the virus behaves exactly, how often it mutates, how dangerous are the different strains, do they differ in country X compared to country Y? No. Do you know when it started spreading? No. Can you distinguish it from other common respiratory viruses as a cause of death post-mortem? No. Do you know exactly how many people are and were infected and where they are, especially provided that there are many asymptomatic cases? No. Can you test for new infections quickly enough before they spread and expect reliable results from the tests? No. Can you pinpoint the cause of death to be exactly the virus in cases which are vulnerable to ALL infectious diseases, additionally provided that the symptoms overlap with some of them and with some of the already existing health issue of the given person? No. What exactly do you have to fake here, you don't know s*** about the thing you should fake. But this is not where the story ends, obviously - despite the little-to-no conclusive scientific researches on the matter, the numbers have already been and still used as conclusions themselves. That's called manipulation, not faking. Or propaganda, if used in political context.
Fourth, bad for the economy is so generic that it means nothing. Bad for who? It's bad for the people who lose their jobs, it's a blessing for financial speculators and everyone who can predict (and influence, directly or not) what happens. Take an educated guess before clicking who could those people be (that's a singe example, mind you, not the only one). Somehow it's a public secret that economic crises always work in favour of some people but at the same time it's considered borderline conspiracy theory. The way a human brain can trick itself just so it can feel the world as a more comfortable place never cease to amaze me. But even if we don't consider the filthy rich only (there are such people in every country), the whole situation is a golden opportunity for large pharmaceutical companies and pharmacires to profit immensely, as is for any industry which already produces or can start producing medical equipment of some sort. Exhibit 1. Exhibit 2. Exhibit 3. Etc. So, "the economy suffering" isn't quite the same as "everyone suffers equally" or that some people/groups are suffering at all. And this is even before the magical drug/vaccine which will save millions of lives has appeared on the market, the EU has already prepared billions for it alone.
As for the political aspect, this is where it gets most ugly of all, as it usually does with politics. You country is a dictatorship, autocracy or a corrupt pseudo-democracy of some sort, you can use the virus to legitimize any further repressions or unpopular measures you take without too much resistance or even grow the support for the government. Your country is a democracy but has major social or political issues which are closing a boiling point (say, some island country leaves a large political union but that's not to everyone's liking on tha island and some bagpipe-blowers living to the north of the islan even want to separate), you can use the crisis to put them aside. You have a political opponent to blacken - use the COVID, it works. You need to gain popular support for your party/government - emphasize on the "we all stand together in this". You can do any of these and much more. And it is being done as we speak, although it's not directed by some central.
How's that for a start? It's your turn.
Quote:
Everything you said is incorrect.
You really proved me wrong here. Take a look at the worldmeter, the official single source of truth, and go through the countries in Eastern Europe. Hint - most of the restrictions have been lifted 2+ months ago, there are mass protests reaching 50 000 - 100 000 people in several of them, Bulgaria including, for around a month. Check Belarus as well. Or Japan (partial restrictions per region, huge population density). Switzerland is also interesting, as it border Italy's most infected regions but never introduced even half as restrictive measures. I believe you can take it from there if you want to.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 31, 2020 12:34 PM |
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Your post is just a bag of hot wind.
You cannot explain away the hefty excess mortality. COLLATERAL DAMAGE? In that magnitude? Nonsense. Another virus? Ever heard of Occam's Razor? The dead are there. Did they really fall victim to the virus? Yes, of course. Maybe not EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. But MOSTLY. Excess mortality leaves no other explanation.
Also: you talk about flu. You DID notice, that flu has a season, right? That flu isn't really liking warm weather and UV rays. Covid, though? It's summer and in the whole of America the numbers of infected are exploding.
Also: You cannot explain away the fact that CHINA (the probable land of origin) RIGOROUSLY locks down every area where people are tested positive. CHINA? Really? Are we talking about the China that has no problem with hurting the environment in favor of economic growth, although this has clearly a detrimental effect on the health of the Chinese people. But with that virus they are extremely cautious.
You wouldn't expect this, wouldn't you?
And that is all not even THAT important when it comes to judging the work of a government with regard to handling the situation.
The US were in a situation where they had a lot of data from Europe, PLUS, they had a regionally rather limited first outbreak with them which means they had a lot of information available to them. Whatever happened until then, but two months ago, EVERY responsible member of any government of the US should have made it mandatory to wear a mask in closed rooms (except their own home) and in all situations where you cannot keep distance. Including singing in church.
Alternatively, they might have at least SUGGESTED this - and give an example.
They didn't. On the contrary. And that's just a big failure. There is no denying that.
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Blizzardboy
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posted July 31, 2020 03:08 PM |
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Zenofex said:
You really proved me wrong here. Take a look at the worldmeter, the official single source of truth, and go through the countries in Eastern Europe. Hint - most of the restrictions have been lifted 2+ months ago, there are mass protests reaching 50 000 - 100 000 people in several of them, Bulgaria including, for around a month. Check Belarus as well. Or Japan (partial restrictions per region, huge population density). Switzerland is also interesting, as it border Italy's most infected regions but never introduced even half as restrictive measures. I believe you can take it from there if you want to.
Zeno, c'mon man, this is just terrible. You don't need to be a medical doctor to have a rudimentary idea of how a virus spreads.
Places with a large initial surges of cases are going to explode quickly. Italy had a large number of cases (and superspreaders) early on, so that means aggressive action needed very early on or else severe consequences. Italian mayors had to (jokingly) make videos threatening to go after people with flamethrowers.
How many flights go from China to Belarus? How many tourists and travelers go in and out of Belarus? How much travel is there WITHIN Belarus compared to other places? How developed is the health system? How thorough is the testing? How transparent and fast are the results? There are so many variables, but the virus spreads the same way everywhere via the same opportunities, especially closed indoor spaces with lots of talking and/or eating.
You are being lazy and I already know you know this stuff or at least I get the impression you would because you've been knowledgeable in other posts.
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