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| Thread: Malaysia Airlines Flight shot down over Ukraine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 19, 2014 07:37 PM |
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Obama is not ruling the US alone you know. There are some pretty influential hawks around him who are more than willing to fuel the Ukrainian crisis. I guess Obama himself is torn between playing the tough guy who he's expected to be as a leader of the primary NATO country and figuring out how to really handle the situation, with the de facto inability of the US to intervene directly (financial, military, political, etc.) in a matter which is not even its primary concern on the international stage at the moment.
@Warmonger, if you check more than 1-2 media sources, you will find that even the US allies - like Germany for instance (although it's a rather critical ally lately after the spy scandal) - admit that CIA plays a fairly important role in what happens in Ukraine. By now everybody who isn't really close-minded and propaganda-prone should have figure that out. It works pretty much like that - Russia fuels the crisis from Donetsk and Lugansk, the US fuels it from Kiev. In between are people who are getting increasingly hostile to each other because so far nobody has really shown signs that reconciliation is even in the agenda.
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Warmonger
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fallen artist
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posted July 19, 2014 09:30 PM |
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first of all, including Ukraine in the eu may be the first step for entering NATO. Russia loses the buffer zone between it and NATO, and NATO warbases will be put all over, nullifying Russia's defence. Can you remember any Russian warbase near the US? You know, I can't. You must know what was the Caribbean crisis, where the situation was vice versa.
Yes, yes, but that's the argument AGAINST it. As long as situation on Ukraine is unstable (war, in fact), it's not gonna enter EU or NATO and certainly not allow to build any military bases there.
Or do you imply that USA doesn't want Ukraine in NATO? If they don't they won't get it enforced, it's no one's business.
On the other hand, importing the gas from USA is not a tragedy for EU, which now strives to get any gas from Russia. It may be win-win option and only Russia has a lot to lose here.
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admit that CIA plays a fairly important role in what happens in Ukraine
I didn't say they do nothing, I just said they have no business to warm up the conflict.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 19, 2014 11:37 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 23:38, 19 Jul 2014.
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Warmonger said:
On the other hand, importing the gas from USA is not a tragedy for EU, which now strives to get any gas from Russia. It may be win-win option and only Russia has a lot to lose here.
Who told you that? He lied to you quite shamelessly. The US can not supply the EU with the quantities of gas that it currently gets from Russia. Nor it will give it on comparable prices. If the EU - quite some countries from the EU that is - had any real alternative to the Russian gas, it would have used it by now. But it doesn't have and will not have in the next few years.
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I didn't say they do nothing, I just said they have no business to warm up the conflict.
Oh really? What do you think they're doing there, teach the Ukrainian army and National Guard self-defense tactics, which they later employ in Donetsk? No sir, the CIA and the US has interest to keep the situation heated as long as the separatists resist the army. If the separatists give up and the Kiev crew wins the day... then you will probably hear about how Ukraine should become a modern liberal democratic state, a would-be member of the EU (and a future member of NATO but that's not gonna be stated immediately), etc. pompous and empty slogans. The Russian guys on the other hand know that very well and will make sure that the separatists are well-supplied as long the Russian interests are threatened. I guess a direct intervention of the Russian army is not out of the question even now. So it's a vicious circle at this point.
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Fauch
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posted July 20, 2014 03:54 PM |
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importing gas from USA? isn't it about the qatarian or iranian gas?
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GunFred
Supreme Hero
Sexy Manticore
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posted July 20, 2014 11:27 PM |
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ihor said:
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If Ukraine cannot control what happens within her borders then it should be dissolved and taken over by someone who can.
By this logic:
There should be no Norway because of Anders Breiwik.
After a hundred years of acting like a rebellious (oil rich) child, it is time for Norway to come home to papa Sweden.  
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xerox
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 07:51 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:51, 21 Jul 2014.
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Zenofex said:
Oh really? What do you think they're doing there, teach the Ukrainian army and National Guard self-defense tactics, which they later employ in Donetsk? No sir, the CIA and the US has interest to keep the situation heated as long as the separatists resist the army. If the separatists give up and the Kiev crew wins the day... then you will probably hear about how Ukraine should become a modern liberal democratic state, a would-be member of the EU (and a future member of NATO but that's not gonna be stated immediately), etc. pompous and empty slogans. The Russian guys on the other hand know that very well and will make sure that the separatists are well-supplied as long the Russian interests are threatened. I guess a direct intervention of the Russian army is not out of the question even now. So it's a vicious circle at this point.
Wait, what. So for assisting Ukraine in upholding its territorial sovereignity, the US is to blame for warming up the conflict? More like resolving it by helping end the occupation of Donetsk by separatist terrorists. This can not be achieved as long as the Russian military involvement persists, so I do hope that if something good can come out of this tragedy, it is a toughened position against Russia from the EU and US.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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orzie
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Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 08:12 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 20:23, 21 Jul 2014.
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And more, more deaths as consequences. You don't know what the majority of Donetsk and Lugansk inhabitants think of Ukraine. These people will not be ever wanting to be the part of the country that bombed their houses. These regions might be retaken again by force, but this will not make these people 'love' Ukraine anymore.
Huge 4m length bombs fell in Donetsk region (Popasnaya town)
Moreover, with the russian proofs (translation available) of the Kiev's involvement in the airplane crash, the reasons for supporting Ukraine are melting. If you still support the government which shamelessly killed 300 innocent people just to save its reputation and accuse the opposing side instead, you deserve no honor. The provocation is being revealed.
However, Obama keeps mumbling his mantra about Russians being guilty in everything because they are Russians. No proofs as always.
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separatist terrorists
Prove that they are terrorists. So the people who bomb the civilians, the infrastructure, the factories are the army of freedom, and the people who oppose them are terrorists? Okay, man. Keep living in a pink world. I hope other members of the EU are more open-minded and not the blindfolded US fanboys. How don't you understand that the US does not bring peace everywhere it comes. It brings only war and destruction.
The ultimate majority of the separatists are the people native to the regions the battle zone covers. They have relatives, houses and other things. They did not come to Kiev - Kiev came to them.
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xerox
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posted July 21, 2014 08:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:47, 21 Jul 2014.
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Whaaat? The very commander of the Donetskt separatists himself confirmed that they shot down a plane in that area, before conveniently deleting the post from his website. That commander allegedly happens to be an officer within the Russian military intelligence, which means Putin is his boss and atleast partially responsible for the crash. The crash and death of nearly 300 civilians, makes the separatists terrorists.
Even if the majority of people in the occupied areas supported becoming subjects to the Kremlin, I would not support the cause. The majority forcing individuals to submit to the oppressive Russian government, would be unjust tyranny. There's no doubt that those aligned with Russia perceives the national government in Kiev as the true tyrant, but the prospects for liberty (which is what matters to me more than international law or public opinion) are greater with Kiev than with Moscow.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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orzie
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Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 21:12, 21 Jul 2014.
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You repost the same bullsnow as Ihor. That VK page is named after Strelkov for PR. You obviously don't know that Strelkov's citations are marked there by a special banner (STRELKOV REPORTS):
The message about the plane is just a repost of bragging from a local forum, from people who obviously thought that another Ukrainian jet plane is taken down. Now think critically, if you were in the city and saw a plane crushing down after an explosion far in the sky, how would you know the shooting side? By telepathy? Knowing that the planes could be only Ukrainian because separatists don't have them?
Unfortunately, Ihor's screenshot is not accessible anymore (if he won't reupload it), but that post didn't have that banner.
As for the deleted post - huh, there were obviously some people in the administration of that page who might have realized that the post could be used against them. And it is used - they deleted it too late.
https://vk.com/wall-57424472_7369
And well, you know, Ihor can be understood - he just loves his country and he is a victim of a polar propaganda at some state as well as me, but your position is not explainable. If you call Russia a tyrannic country, you do the job for US which is usually even paid off. It's time for you to ask them for salary.
Some of us did forget how the real tyranny looks.
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xerox
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posted July 21, 2014 09:12 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:20, 21 Jul 2014.
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1. The separatists confirmed on their social network page they shot down the page, before deleting the post (which, thanks to the internet, can still be found).
2. The separatists are deleting internet posts and tweets about them possessing air-to-ground missiles.
3. The separatists are hiding evidence around the crash site.
4. The separatists the only ones with a probable motive for shooting down aircraft in the area.
I think it's pretty obvious that they mistakenly took the aircraft for a military target, then panicked when they realized that had just caused the death of nearly 300 civilians, with an anti-air missile from Russia. You support the separatists and the Russian government, fine, but why the need to pretend there's a massive conspiracy here? It's a war. People do stupid things.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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orzie
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Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 09:21 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 21:33, 21 Jul 2014.
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Yes, you found that post. And as you can see, no banner is present. It was written by observers who did see the plane in the sky. Far, far away from the crash site and shooting site. What else do I need to explain?
Of course they thought it's another AN-26 from thousands of kilometers. And of course they thought that it's separatists who blew it.
But there are no proofs that separatists did it. Ukrainian lies about separatists having the Buk rocket system and tranfering it back to Russia have failed - the video proved to be fake because of the local address on one of the advertisement boards - it did belong to another city (under Ukraine's control) and another data.
Proof: proof
Now feed us with more Western propaganda. I'm waiting.
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4. The separatists the only ones with a probable motive for shooting down aircraft in the area.
I won't even respond to this.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2014 09:33 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:44, 21 Jul 2014.
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Xerox said:
The crash and death of nearly 300 civilians, makes the separatists terrorists.
Xerox said:
I think it's pretty obvious that they mistakenly took the aircraft for a military target, then panicked when they realized that had just caused the death of nearly 300 civilians.
Well, if it's a mistake as you suggest, then, they are NOT terrorists. Wake up, civilians get caught in the crossfire in wars all the time, especially in modern warfare that uses highly ranged weapons and bombs with area effect. Civilian loss of life usually exceeds martial loss of life: It is the routine of post-WW2 wars.
I don't know who is responsible, it is one of those cases in which, it is reasonable to assume both parties can be. Nothing's very far fetched. And we wont have any hard evidence until some time passes and the disinformation rain clears away. But terrorist is the most overused word in such situations and this inflation had emptied out any meaning it posses long time ago. Nowadays, the word is just a rhetorical device of propaganda and psychological warfare to mud-sling whichever party you are in conflict with.
If someone sets out a chemical time-bob in the heart of the city at a metro station or kidnaps a commercial plane, call them terrorists, fine. But calling every militia, guerrilla, black-op, collateral damage etc etc terrorism is very naive and it implies the speaker believes normal wars are fought within boundaries of chivalry. They are certainly not.
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xerox
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posted July 21, 2014 09:34 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:35, 21 Jul 2014.
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orzie said:
Yes, you found that post. And as you can see, no banner is present. It was written by observers who did see the plane in the sky. Far, far away from the crash site and shooting site. What else do I need to explain?
Of course they thought it's another AN-26 from thousands of kilometers. And of course they thought that it's separatists who blew it.
lol so the "observers", writing on an official separatist social media page, aren't aligned with the separatists? Or are you just gonna stick to ridiculous conspiracy theories with zero support?
This is a war and people do stupid thing in wars. This time, it was the separatists who screwed up big time.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 09:35 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 21:42, 21 Jul 2014.
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Xerox just reads the mass media which call these people terrorists. It is enough for him to make a decision. No comments.
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lol so the "observers", writing on an official separatist social media page
Let's define what you call "Official separatists media page". You know, that page is not official. Did you even read the description? I thought Google Translate has not banned your IP.
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This is a war and people do stupid thing in wars. This time, it was the separatists who screwed up big time.
Again I say, watch it please. The English translation is available.
Russian Ministry of Defense briefing
Or keep ignoring the facts and behave like Obama who denies everything like it never happened and the proofs not shown and accuses Russians of guilt of being Russians.
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xerox
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posted July 21, 2014 09:45 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:51, 21 Jul 2014.
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Well, believe what you want to believe, but as time passes, it will be more and more clear that the separatists, by mistake, shot down a civilian aircraft with a Russian air-to-ground missile.
artu said:
Nowadays, the word is just a rhetorical device of propaganda and psychological warfare to mud-sling whichever party you are in conflict with.
Of course framing them as terrorists is a rhetorical device. As Kennedy wisely said about Russia placing missiles on Cuba not really changing the military balance of power, "it would have politically changed the balance of power. It would have appeared to, and appearances contribute to reality."
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 09:55 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 21:56, 21 Jul 2014.
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Well, believe what you want to believe, but as time passes, it will be more and more clear that the Ukrainian forces, by conscious decision, shot down a civilian aircraft with a ground-to-air missile or even continued the attack by the air-to-air missile as some versions suggest. The action target is obviously a provocation, and Wikipedia currently is being harshly edited to decrease the flight characteristics of Ukrainian SU-25 which operated in the area, from 10000m of max height to 7000. But the history of the edits shows everything.
You obviously won't watch that video. I suppose you don't want proofs to break your pink image of the world. Well, it's your choice, but your opinion is now worthless in this thread. You have already stated your prejudice-ish convenient point of view on Russia which does not need additional thinking and I guess it's not curable.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2014 09:59 PM |
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So, you are defending the overuse of a word for the purpose of psychological framing on a basis of appearances contributing to reality?
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xerox
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posted July 21, 2014 10:01 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:04, 21 Jul 2014.
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Politically, yes, but obivously calling them terrorists would be intellectually dishonest in more academic circumstances.
edit: and no, I'm not going to watch a 30 minute video of the Russian defence minister speaking publicly, as to pretend that these matters are resolved in public
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2014 10:04 PM |
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Ok, you just admitted to twisting the facts because of your political preference.
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xerox
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2014 10:09 PM |
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Politics 101. You got me!
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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