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| Thread: Talking about Death |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Steyn
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posted July 22, 2014 10:12 AM |
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DagothGares said:
The best thing you can do, like at a funeral and such is telling them: "I'm sorry for your loss. I'm here if you need me. (optional: And if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.)" The exact wording isn't too important.
From what I've understood (from people who've suffered a loss) is that these kind of offers for help are really annoying. You ask someone who already has enough on his/her mind to think of something for you to do. It is (perhaps) better to offer a specific service, such as preparing dinner on Tuesday, or helping with the finances.
On the topic. I don't think euphemisms are bad, as they make it easier to deal with a difficult subject such as death. As for telling your children about death, I can think of quite a few Disney movies where death plays quite a prominent role (Bambi, Lion King, Mulan, Frozen). From what I understood these are intended for (small) children...
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 11:05 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:08, 22 Jul 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
artu said:
Quote:
I mostly agree with the others - telling children fairy tales about death is as stupid as telling them lies about sex.
It is an important fact of life that our time here is limited - and that we simply don't know what happens with a person after they die.
Well, almost all of the others (that would be me, Mvass and Corribus) in this instance, do not define after death as something unknown. If you see your consciousness, (which is your personality, self-awareness, simply put, your existence), as the result of the activity of your brain, you KNOW there is nothing after brain-death. It is not a mystery, it is not a question. It is a matter of causality: No brain no person.
The concept of death itself, as in how it affects our life, is of course a philosophically deep question but "what happens after you die" is not. Nothing happens,that is the simple and harsh truth.
This is certainly not the right place to discuss it, but it isn't so simple at all. You'll have to be a strict materialist to claim this, but since there are alternatives, it's not your task to influence your child in one direction.
What we know is what materially happens with the body, but we also know that people lying in a coma, no brain activity registered, afterwards were able to describe what was done to them, seemingly having witnessed things from a pov outside of their body.
The simple and harsh truth is, that we've learned, the more we learn, the more questions come up.
Not really JJ. This is not like having room for agnostic doubt about God or something, it's pretty basic and the idea of an after-life in which your personality travels around as some specter is quite off limits and caricaturistic to anyone who explains consciousness with nature. The experiences you talk about all have psychological/neurological explanations, the ones that don't are simply urban legend or pseudo-science, not much different than quantum mysticism or intelligent design. This is not like influencing your child on a political matter or ideology. It is as basic as telling him/her, there is no such thing as a ghost, which, in a broader sense, is an "influence" too. We are not in the 18th century where philosophers debate if mind and body are separate, we live in an age where behavioral issues are treated with chemical drugs, an age where they pinpoint your cognitive skills (or any illness/lack of ability you have with them) on a map of your brain. Having all this information, the idea of a soul without a body has some very serious ontological issues to begin with, because without all that cognitive skills which are directly linked to your brain with strong evidence, you simply can't be you anymore. It would be like having a painting without any color.
Once again, the problem only exists if you have an issue with lying (and I do). If you choose to keep, what at best can be called wishful thinking, as an option, you might as well tell the child we will all be happy in heaven drinking from the chocolate river because probability wise, there is really not much difference between that and keeping your self-awareness and personality after your brain ceases to exist.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 11:21 AM |
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Artu, stop the crap, please. If you want to sell your children Materialism as the absolute truth, I wouldn't advise that, because it would ignore a lot, but there is no one going to stop you, probably.
Others are not so certain of their "facts" and labels, and I ask you again, not to derail the thread with a discussion about what we, as a species, know to be absolutely and unchangeably true and what not.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 11:34 AM |
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Belief in an after-life is not any kind of idealism, it is a very specific and childish kind of cosmology. You wishing to live forever doesn't change this. And the kid is asking for your sincere opinion, giving him/her that is not forcing him/her to agree with you. Can you present one credible source that takes the idea of "watching yourself from above while in a coma" or similar kind of non-sense seriously. How can you watch ANYTHING without your eyes? Obviously, it's something that happens in your head, a dream.
How is you believing you are going to be together with your loved ones after you die any different than Elodin believing in he'll meet Jesus Christ? What is the categorical difference in any of these superstitions?
The subject of talking to kids about death is a tough issue because there is no after-life, if it was a considerable probability, we wouldn't have much of a problem to begin with anyway.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 12:17 PM |
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Try This
For Info on the author
I do not wish to discuss this here. It just doesn't make sense to sell young children somewhat bleak assumptions as the only truth when it's something that's so heavily contested. You shouldn't slam doors shut in children's faces. Instead you should open as many as possible.
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 12:38 PM |
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I'll try to keep the after-life aspect of the discussion short but it would be hard because it's directly relevant. For now, I'll skip, you calling the necessity between our brain and our mind "a bleak assumption." The Amazon link introduces your book saying: If you enjoy books about near-death experiences, such as those by Raymond Moody, Jeffrey Long, and James Van Praagh; watch televisions shows like Ghosthunters, Touched by an Angel, and Ghost Whisperer; or are interested in works that explore the intersection of faith and science, such as Spiritual Brain, Signature in the Cell, and When Science Meets Religion; you’ll find much to ponder in Consciousness Beyond Life. We all know what intersection of faith and science is, don't we, it's pseudo-science, just like I said.
And your Wiki link puts the criticism as:
In another Dutch bestseller titled We zijn ons brein (We are our brain), neurobiologist Dick Swaab praises Van Lommel's research for mapping patients experiences and opening up the subject of Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) to the medical world. But he also indicates that Van Lommel's book ignores (Nobel Prize winning) scientific knowledge including some conclusions from his own research. He does not refute neurobiological explanations, gives no scientific basis for his statements and borrows concepts from quantum physics without ground.
Back to kids, let's simplify. Your kid comes to you, he says that his friends told him that the house next to yours is haunted. There are ghosts living in it. Are there really ghosts, daddy?
a)Assuming you'll answer "no"
Why not? In this world that we know so little about, why do you object to the notion of ghosts wondering around? If mind can exist without the body, what prevents ghosts from becoming real?
b)If your answer would be other than anything no, what exactly would it be?
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 22, 2014 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
How can you watch ANYTHING without your eyes?
Eyes are merely organic sensors that use light, which then relay this information to the brain, and thus you "see". The Hindus believe that human senses, while advanced, are quite primitive. It's like "licking the honey jar from the outside". While the main senses remain the same (taste, sight, smell, hearing and touch) the soul does not share the same materialistic limitations as human sensors.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 12:40 PM |
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 22, 2014 12:45 PM |
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You asked, and I answered.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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DagothGares
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posted July 22, 2014 12:45 PM |
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Steyn said:
DagothGares said:
The best thing you can do, like at a funeral and such is telling them: "I'm sorry for your loss. I'm here if you need me. (optional: And if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.)" The exact wording isn't too important.
From what I've understood (from people who've suffered a loss) is that these kind of offers for help are really annoying. You ask someone who already has enough on his/her mind to think of something for you to do. It is (perhaps) better to offer a specific service, such as preparing dinner on Tuesday, or helping with the finances.
Not really. It's an offer that doesn't require a response.
My point being is that you should avoid being dramatic, so obviously don't be like: "If there's ANYTHING I can do. ANYTHING AT ALL. You need but ask!" Please, nobody cares.
That's very different from: "I'm here if you need me."
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 12:55 PM |
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Artu, I can read, thank you, and I know what I linked you, too, so there is no need to quote these things as if they were the holy grail. The observations related are one thing, the conclusions the author draws are another one altogether.
For your question, whether there were ghosts, my answer would be that I haven't seen any, but that there were people claiming that, and the truth was, I couldn't say with any real conviction whether yes or no.
How would Artu, the materialist, explain the concept of love?
"Daddy, my friend's parents are arguing all day, she says. She thinks they don't love each other anymore. Can that happen with you and mummy as well? Or with you and me?"
Will you go on then and tell her that there is no such thing as love, only hormones and chemistry?
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 01:15 PM |
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His conclusions would be arbitrary if based on faith, and I did not suggest people can't have faith, I said people who see a difficulty in talking to their children about death without lying are the ones who do not share that faith to begin with:
artu said:
Well, the thing is, people who talk about not lying when it comes to death are usually people who think that after-life is a lie, friendofgunnar.. Otherwise, what would be the problem, "you'll go to heaven and be happy forever if you behave good", done.
"What happens when a person dies" will most likely be followed by "Will it happen to me, too?" and that's a sensitive subject to talk about with a child if your opinion is death is the ultimate end.
Pim van Lommel can talk to his children, explaining "that the brain is merely a terminal for accessing consciousness which is nonlocal (i.e. situated outside the physical body)."
And when it comes to love, love is abstract but everything abstract is not necessarily super-natural. Of course, it would be hard to define love, let alone explain it to a little child but that is a difficulty of a different nature. Not being able to define something completely does not mean you don't know what it's NOT. Even when you are not sure what it exactly is, you can still be sure what it exactly isn't and I'm sure love is not super-natural either.
The thing is JJ, you can believe that after-life is a mystery, which means, you'll have a relatively easier task on your hand if your kid asks you about it. But I don't think the original poster shares your notion and the question he asks rather seeks a solution within the boundaries of natural phenomenon also.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 22, 2014 01:24 PM |
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The after life is no mystery, because there's no such thing, there's no after life, because to claim so would be suggesting that life ends or becomes altered. The soul will depart from this body when it chooses and do whatever it wants, just as it has always done, and always will. The human thought and mind are nothing more than an expression of our true selves. We are playing a game, downgrading ourselves and capabilities for our own entertainment, or perhaps even self development. This is ironic when one consider the nature of certain video games, playing them is a mere repetition of our own existence on this planet.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 01:31 PM |
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Yeah right... We've been through that in the related thread if I remember correctly, Tsar. There is more than plenty of rational, logical and scientific reason to suggest that the brain is a necessity for your mind (self) to exist and none to suggest that it isn't, other than ancient cultural memes and wishful thinking. To me, it is a matter of facing your own mortality with dignity and it is a hard task to explain to a child exactly because of that.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 22, 2014 01:38 PM |
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You are wrong insofar, that your obligation to your child is NOT, to provide definite answers. Your obligation is to try and enable them to ask questions and to look (and know how to look) for answers themselves.
"Not lying" to your child, means, you are not supposed to invent something in order to reassure your children as much as possible. It does not mean to invent bleak conclusions from facts either. See above.
There is a difference between what death of a beloved person or pet means for the still living and what it may mean for the deceased. You can say a lot about the former, but the latter is somewhat elusive.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2014 01:43 PM |
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DagothGares said:
Steyn said:
DagothGares said:
The best thing you can do, like at a funeral and such is telling them: "I'm sorry for your loss. I'm here if you need me. (optional: And if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.)" The exact wording isn't too important.
From what I've understood (from people who've suffered a loss) is that these kind of offers for help are really annoying. You ask someone who already has enough on his/her mind to think of something for you to do. It is (perhaps) better to offer a specific service, such as preparing dinner on Tuesday, or helping with the finances.
Not really. It's an offer that doesn't require a response.
My point being is that you should avoid being dramatic, so obviously don't be like: "If there's ANYTHING I can do. ANYTHING AT ALL. You need but ask!" Please, nobody cares.
That's very different from: "I'm here if you need me."
Oh, I totally agree that it's a good way to give some comfort. I was just saying what I heard from (some) people who lost a loved one. Of course other people can experience it differently. I myself can imagine that all those people offering their (undefined) help becomes a bit tedious after the umpteenth time. It might even start to feel insincere (like the question "How are you?"). While when someone offers to make you dinner, look after the kids, clean the house or whatever, it could be easier to feel the warmth behind the offer. Then again, if everyone offers to make dinner on tuesday, I would definitely go crazy 
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 01:57 PM |
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Quote:
You are wrong insofar, that your obligation to your child is NOT, to provide definite answers. Your obligation is to try and enable them to ask questions and to look (and know how to look) for answers themselves.
Once again, I do not see the notion of an after-life as a speculative matter, it is a closed case. I'd like to remind you, that you, yourself label some faith as "fairy tale" also and when your opinion of something is that it's obviously a fairy tale, you wont teach your children to be skeptical about it or consider it as a 50/50 probability. You should teach them to be skeptical and think for themselves IN GENERAL though, on that I fully agree with you. Bottom line is, if my kid asks me if there are any ghosts, I'll answer NO. Not everything is probable and very improbable things should be dealt with accordingly. That's not inventing things, it's the opposite, it's not inventing unnecessary things.
Quote:
There is a difference between what death of a beloved person or pet means for the still living and what it may mean for the deceased. You can say a lot about the former, but the latter is somewhat elusive.
I don't think this is relevant to what I said about love and it's beside the point.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted July 22, 2014 02:03 PM |
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artu said:
Yeah right... We've been through that in the related thread if I remember correctly, Tsar. There is more than plenty of rational, logical and scientific reason to suggest that the brain is a necessity for your mind (self) to exist and none to suggest that it isn't, other than ancient cultural memes and wishful thinking. To me, it is a matter of facing your own mortality with dignity and it is a hard task to explain to a child exactly because of that.
The only thing that scientific facts prove is that the areas of the brain are stimulated by certain senses and emotion. However, there's no evidence to suggest that the brain is the cause of it. There may be rational theories that you would endorse, but no facts. I too endorse my own "theories", and that's where that discussion ended.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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posted July 22, 2014 02:26 PM |
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The difference is I can point to an obvious causality while you cannot.
Why does the sun come up every morning? Gravity explains it. How do I prove there isn't a metaphysical force motivating gravity, I can't in the sense you expect me to, but I don't NEED TO because gravity itself is sufficient. There is no reason to assume something else, because there is nothing unexplained already.
And also remember, we are not the only species in this world and the gradual connection between brain activity and having a mind is very clear today. There are hundreds of studies, showing what we perceive as something so absolutely abstract is actually the result of gradual biological advancement. Do bacteria have a soul? But they don't have a brain, what about lizards, but they are overwhelmingly instinctive. What about dogs or gorillas, do they keep living on after the body decompose? They can love to a level for sure. At what point, the consciousness becomes something you feel the need to explain super-naturally? Such a threshold does not exist.
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Steyn
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posted July 22, 2014 02:27 PM |
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Maybe a little bit off-topic, but how about Santa? We all know he is a lie, but still we tell the kids he exists. I know it is a nice tradition and it was great being a kid and believing (in my case in Sinterklaas), but afterwards finding out your parents lied to you for years is not so funny. Any parents here who can tell about their experience as a parent? And have you thought about it beforehand?
To relate this question to the topic: are we supposed to tell our kids a lie about death too, maybe to make it more easy to deal with. The problem with death (and religion) of course is that there are many Santa's and nobody to tell which one is real. I'm with Artu in that I would go for the most probable Santa, but I don't know how I would tell a kid.
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