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| Thread: Heroes 7 back to old Heroes? | |
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted July 29, 2014 12:45 PM |
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Heroes 7 back to old Heroes?
What do you think? Should Heroes 7 have at least the style of old heroes games and set in another world not in Ashan?
-Factions be less racial (not completely themed but less racial)
-Less over-fantasy dragons(even in lore) and more "variations" of Dragons like kirins(oriental dragons), basilisks, lindwyrms(worm-like dragons) and classical dragons(h3 classic design)
-12 factions to choose from
-Less uber-graphics and more cool gameplay
-Less focus on MP and an always-replayable sp with +100 maps?
-Castle instead of Haven with the old Arthurian style and Rampart as a celtic/japanese mix(Heroes III)?
GOOD
Castle:
Classes: Champion and Cleric
Peasant->Militia
Bowman->Crossbowman
Swordsman->Crusader
Monk->Zealot
Griffin->Royal Griffin
Knight->Chevalier
Angel->Archangel
Rampart:
Classes: Ranger and Druid
Halfling->Burglar
War Tiger->White Tiger
Hunter->Sharpshooter
Bladesman->Blademaster
Dendroid->Dendroid Warden
Unicorn->War Unicorn
Firebird->Phoenix
Tower:
Classes: Alchemist and Magi
Familiar->Eldritch Familiar
Stone Gargoyle->Marble Gargoyle (look like real gargoyles with realistic stone/marble textures)
Apprentice->Initiate
Djinn->Efreet
Roc->Great Roc
Rakshasa Kshatriya->Rakshasa Raja
Gold Golem->Diamond Golem (golems should be practically impossible to kill so I think a lv7 that recieve only 25% physical damage is sufficent)
Battlement
Classes: Jarl and Wizard
Hirdsman->Huskarl
Dwarf->Battle Dwarf
Runecaster->Runepriest
Einherjar->Wulfheadnar
Jotunn(Mountain Giant)->Hrimthurs(Frost Giant)
Dis->Valkyrie
Great Wyrm->Lindwyrm
NEUTRAL
Conflux:
Classes: Planeswalker and Elementalist
Pixie->Sprite
Air El.->Storm El.(similiar to h3)
Water El.->Ice El.(Similiar to h3)
Fire El.->Blazing El.(lizard shaped i.e. salamandres)
Earth El.->Crystal El.(similiar to h3)
Psychic El.->Magic El.(similiar to h3)
Crystal Dragon->Amethyst Dragon(Similiar to M&M8)
Cove:
Classes: Captain and Hydromancer
Nix->Oceanid(ranged)
Giant Crab->Carcinos
Pirate->Buccaneer(Ranged)
Triton->Triton Champion
Seeress->Priestess
Naga->Naga Queen
Kraken->Mighty Kraken(moves like the Watcher in BFMEII, by burrowing and respawning)
Fortress:
Classes: Tactican and Shaman
Troglodyte->Amphibian Troglodyte
Serpent Fly->Dragon Fly
Lizardman Hunter->Lizardman Archer
Gnoll->Gnoll Marauder
Gorgon->Medusa
Catobelpas->Mighty Catobelpas(Catobelpas is what H3 calls gorgon)
Cockatrice->Basilisk
Stronghold:
Classes: Barbarian and Battlemage
Goblin->Hobgoblin(ranged, throws javelins)
Wolf->Direwolf
Orc->Orc Chieftain(melee, fights with axe)
Ogre->Ogre Brawler(Slightly bigger than orc, still 1 hex size)
Troll->War Troll
Cyclops->Cyclops King
Behemoth->Ancient Behemoth
EVIL
Inferno
Classes: Demon Lord and Heretic
Imp->Fiend
Gog->Magog
Hellhound->Cerberus
Succubus->Succubus Queen
Tormentor->Pit Lord
Hellsteed->Nightmare
Demon->Devil(Supernatural Style, demon is like a humanoid made of black smoke, devil is like a humanoid made of dark red hellfire and black smoke. They're very powerful and can possess stacks)
Necropolis
Classes: Cuisinart(MM6) and Necromancer
Skeleton->Skeleton Warrior
Walking Dead->Zombie
Revenant->Ancient Revenant
Ghost->Wraith
Vampire->Vampire Count
Lich->Power Lich
Dread Knight->Death Knight
Dungeon
Classes: Overlord and Warlock
Greater Spider->Cavern Spider
Harpy->Harpy Hag
Evil Eye->Beholder
Dokkalfar(Dark Elf)->Svartalvar(Black Elf)
Minotaur->Minotaur King
Manticore->Scorpiore
Green Dragon->Red Dragon->Black Dragon
Bulwark
Classes: Beastmaster and Witch
Bloodsucker->Soulsucker(M&M6)
Bandit->Rogue
Troglodyte->Troglodyte Warrior
Werewolf->Alpha Werewolf
Fear->Terror(M&M 8)
Wyvern->Feral Wyvern
Hydra->Chaos Hydra
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 01:46 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 13:47, 29 Jul 2014.
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Lord_Immortal said:
What do you think? Should Heroes 7 have at least the style of old heroes games and set in another world not in Ashan?
-Factions be less racial (not completely themed but less racial)
-Less over-fantasy dragons(even in lore) and more "variations" of Dragons like kirins(oriental dragons), basilisks, lindwyrms(worm-like dragons) and classical dragons(h3 classic design)
-12 factions to choose from
-Less uber-graphics and more cool gameplay
-Less focus on MP and an always-replayable sp with +100 maps?
-Castle instead of Haven with the old Arthurian style and Rampart as a celtic/japanese mix(Heroes III)?
Apart from how demons are used as a plot device I actually like Ashan.
I certainly would not like it if the factions became less racial, as that is what gives a faction structure and an identity. Sure, there can be factions with a central theme, such as the wizards, but these should be an exception, not the rule. If necessary it is always possible to make two different factions of the same race, comparable to what was done with the Elves of Irollan and the Dark Elves.
BTW, why is it bad for a faction to contain several units of the same race? Heroes 5 dwarfs received a lot of hate because of the many dwarfs, but isn't that exactly like haven/castle? Why can only humans dominate their faction and have the rest of the races to rely on beasts or other creatures?
I don't really know what you mean with over-fantasy dragons. If you mean not based on existing fantasy/mythology, then I have no problem with that as long as they are well-made. What I do not want is the many iterations of the same dragon Heroes 3 gave us.
As most (if not all) people I am a fan of having many factions to choose from. However, don't you think 12 isn't a bit too much (and unrealistic)? Including Cove, Heroes 3 only has 10 factions, and that is already much more than all other HoMM games. The 5 factions of Heroes 6 where not enough, so I want at least 6, preferably even 7. Then of course at least two more have to be added in expansions or DLC.
As for MP or SP, I don't think it should be focussed on anything, it should just be a good game. A large number of maps is nice for SP, but 100+ is a bit over the top (like 12 factions). A must for replayability are a user-friendly map editor and if possible a RMG. With a good RMG you don't even need that many maps to start with.
My proposal for Heroes 7 would be to leave out the demons for once and bring back some of the races that were missing in Heroes 6. For some of the other races a different subfaction can be visited, like the switch from steppe orcs to island orcs in Heroes 6.
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 02:44 PM |
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less racial? No. I enjoy the more racially-themed factions.
12 factions is good but I think it's hard to make it unique like H5 did. If they can pull it off then kudos to them.
Aside from that, I agree. Though I think H5 is the best game in the series, I do think the world of Ashan is getting old. I would love the idea to have less religion. One faction that is super religious would be enough.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted July 29, 2014 06:15 PM |
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This is way too much H3 similar with a twist of H4.
Plus, 12 factions will force pre-made maps to have the equivalent of XXXL status for it to have decent, in size, territories as the middle sized map option and, an equivalent of a whole continent size map(ex-H5 impossible)for adding the 4 extra neutrals up to the 16 starting villages spawned all over her.
I, still, believe that a world map would be a nice addition to the Heroes series as for Heroes 7. Up to 100 villages and settlements of all kinds could be existing and, involves in a lot of exploring + completing all sorts of mini local quests as you go along. Creatures of your type of alignment could very well join that exploring hero or heroes to make an epic army that can keep going and rejuvenate itself by recruiting these wandering groups.
Racial abilities are needed and, us, humans, can not see ourselves being utterly naturally void of such properties.
Religion is meant to be as an assuring dissipation of the imminent restlessness that we, all, suffer of from time to time. Besides, cutting off the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church that has a firm grip across the Earth is: market sales' of the game across the globe would plummet in asolute damnation and doom. Even the Orthodox Church goes by the existence of an Heaven and Hell. Especially in the semi dark ages of the medieval and feudal times of that specific era + magic being not condoned and viewed as necessary on that highly bound mystically made world.
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted July 29, 2014 08:31 PM |
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I like the idea of a World Map. Something like Mount&Blade or BFMEII may actually be cool(aside from standard skirmish games).
I think 12 factions because that's an optimal number I've seen in Age of Wonders II - it adds a lot of replay-ability. Shadow Magic has 15 factions but I don't think we can pull out that much factions in a heroes game. Though, now that I think, you can make a Dark Elf, a Dwarf and a Bandit faction. I'm also thinking of dividing the Gnolls and Lizardmen the former in the Bulwark and the latter in the Fortress.
I don't want to make all the factions like H2/3 where i.e. in Rampart there was just one Elf unit and the pegasus(pretty lame choice). I mean from 2-4 troops of the same race in a faction(with the exeption of Castle which is classic) and also, the same race is divided in more than 1 faction(i.e. humans).
As for less religion - it's not an idea of less religion. Religion is OK what I mean is, come on, all factions worship 1 dragon each. That's somehow lame. There should be a variety of gods. Dragon worshiping is ok, but for one, not for all factions.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 08:37 PM |
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I'd say 12 factions is too many unless you're planning on say 3 expansions, and even then, making 12 different factions unique will be damned difficult, especially once you factor in racial skills. Overall I'd say factions being less racial is a good idea, oh some just work as racial, but IMO these should be the exception, not the rule, just as long as we don't end up with the absolute hodge-podge of races that was H3 Dungeon and Rampart.
Fewer dragons definitely gets my vote, especially if we can eliminate them from the lore. Likewise, simpler graphics is something I can get behind if it means a less buggy, more smooth-flowing game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 29, 2014 09:25 PM |
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People, don't be ridiculous. TWELVE FACTIONS?
Even AoW started with 6, and their last game had 15.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 29, 2014 09:33 PM |
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Anything below 20 is not worth our time! 
____________
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted July 30, 2014 01:08 AM |
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It's true though. It took years for HOMM V developers to even produce 6 initial factions, and the game wasn't even complete by release. The same can be said for HOMM VI.
Be realistic. We're not going to get 12 factions, not unless the game goes back fully to its classic animated look. But that runs the risk of alienating new players. Sure, it can be argued that at this point, because HOMM VI didn't do so well, why not just maintain the series for the fans and make it for the fans... sounds good enough for us? Not good enough for the business.
Personally, I hated how good and evil factions were a lot more clear cut in the old games, and it wasn't until the expansions of V where morality, if not from a technical standpoint, but at least from a campaign standpoint, started to get blurred.
The Tear/Blood system is interesting, but it needs a lot of work to make it sustainably interesting. But this is something I'd want back in 7.
Also, the core 6 in II should make a return in 7 as the bare minimum. Knight/Haven, Orc/Stronghold, Sorceress/Sylvan, Wizard/Academy, Warlock/Dungeon, Necropolis.
Don't get me wrong, the Sanctuary is probably my favourite faction next to ToTE Sylvan, and IDEALLY, I would like one faction from each of the main geographical landmarks in Ashan (Irollan, YggChall, Griffin Empire, Heresh, Hashima, Silver Cities, Grimheim, Barbarian islands)... but to scrap three of the 6 upon the vanilla release... sort of helped in making it feel less HOMM, if that makes sense.
But yeah, I love Ashan and how they've established these mini-worlds in a huge world, each of which are distinct in their own ways... It would be nice to have a faction playable from each region to help immerse the player... it's kinda like Game of Thrones. If a good GoT game ever came out, "good" being the optimal word, would you want to play a faction of your choice, one that existed as a major player in the books and series?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted July 31, 2014 12:32 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
People, don't be ridiculous. TWELVE FACTIONS?
Even AoW started with 6, and their last game had 15.
No.
AoW 1 had 12, AoW 2 had 12, Shadow Magic(AoW2 standalone expansion) had 15 and AoW 3 has 6.
It's a matter of replay-ability. I said they should focus less on graphics and more on gameplay. With M&B Warband level of detail you could get a nice game with 12-15 fac. and optimal for every pc of today.
Hey, how about an idea(detached from the total war): Total War view on stacks and large battlefields?
However, a limit of units that can be brought to battles should be set like in Mount and Blade and that may vary from 100 units to the battlefield, to unlimited (every player should set that in proportion with his/her pc).
Also, the player can have up to 100 ballistae/tents/ammo carts and up to 20 catapults.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 31, 2014 01:47 PM |
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Personally, I think 9 factions (at least 6 at the start) would be best. I am thinking of roughly the alignment wheel of Dungeons and Dragons here:
LG - NG - CG
LN - NN - CN
LE - NE - CE
For those of you unfamiliar with this wheel, the L stands for Lawful while C is its opposite, Chaotic; G stands for Good and E for its opposite, Evil. N stands for Neutral. The skillwheel provides 9 alignments as a result. Lawful looks at the group, Chaotic at the individual. Good indicates whether it's benificially oriented, Evil indicates if it's totalitarian or oppressive.
If we look at the final factions in Heroes 3, we can assign each faction one of the alignments:
Haven = Lawful Good
Tower = Neutral Good
Rampart = Chaotic Good
Fortress = Lawful Neutral
Conflux = True Neutral
Stronghold = Chaotic Neutral
Necropolis = Lawful Evil
Dungeon = Neutral Evil
Inferno = Chaotic Evil
Of course, borders aren't sharply defined. For instance, the splinterfaction from Haven in Heroes V was actually Lawful Evil. By playing with this, you can create tensions between factions and use it as a backdrop for campaign stories.
Lord_Immortal said:
Hey, how about an idea(detached from the total war): Total War view on stacks and large battlefields?
However, a limit of units that can be brought to battles should be set like in Mount and Blade and that may vary from 100 units to the battlefield, to unlimited (every player should set that in proportion with his/her pc).
I'd say no. This starts to mix the more symbolic representation of units as has always been done by the Heroes games with realistic army representations on the battlefield. This will mean that tile size will start to matter. For instance, it would be odd that you wouldn't be able to fit a Cavalier along with two Crossbowmen and a Zealot or two in the same tile that you could fit a thousand Swordsmen in.
I already abhor the more realistic landscapes that have been introduced with Heroes V, as the previous titles all had a symbolic representation.
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