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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: About uselessness of some specialities
Thread: About uselessness of some specialities
orc
orc


Known Hero
posted August 06, 2014 11:32 PM
Edited by orc at 23:52, 06 Aug 2014.

About uselessness of some specialities

Hi guys,

sometime I was thinking of the unit speciality so I searched and they said (somewhere here) that the bonus is given in following formula

5% per hero level over unit level = 5% X Hlvl / Ulvl

and I was thinking this is extremely pointless, except the starting army  + speed and it ends here

so I was thinking and thinking and then I thought reasonable idea is multiply that by 4 (i.e. 20% per level of hero relative to creature instead of 5%), will make this useful, but maybe 1st levels are best

e.g.
Goblin 5 att 3 def: each level +1.0 attck + 0.6 Def
Skeletal 6  6 : each level + 1.2 attck + 1.2 Def
Dark knight upgraded 18 18: each level +0.6 attck + 0.6 Def
Griffin 9 9 : each level +0.6 attck + 0.6 Def
champion 16 16 : each level 0.53 atck + 0.53 Def

Archer 6 3 : each level +0.6 attck +0.3 def
little discussion
so the last one, compared to archery, he has 3% bonus dmg each level, whereas archer do 2.5% each level. but this also give defense. now you might say archery much better, but archery dont give defense. archery dont give speed. archery dont give starting army. well, now it might be comparable a bit more now to archery. in any case its less useless at least.

I did see the speciality boost thing in wog options and it seemed to do, instead of this, bonus to the unit equal to the attack and defense points the hero has (his primary skill) in addition to some damage and hp.
this also seem quite reasonable (maybe more resonable), but thing is.... I didnt really like the other speciallity boosts, like:
orrin start with percision
first aiders start with stone skin O_o
and many other boosts seemed like "ruining the game" to me
so

is wog planning to maybe edit that? actually whats happening in wog? cuz it also seem no updates are coming or anything? if so maybe there is way to do that change in speciallity ?
( i have not tried to do wog map change yet, maybe we can do it there?)
-----------------------------------------------
part 2
about the spell specialtiy
I just want to know exactly what it does: what the bonus with lesser level?
I only found the bless sepciality for human cleric and it was something like
3% per hero level divide by monster level
0.03 X Hlvl / Mlvl (or maybe I wrong i forgot so just want to confirm)

and the other specialities? I only found bless when search
but maybe I'm thinking its something like
bonus 5% or 3% per hero level divided by unit level? (like weekness and bloodlust and percision)

or does it have another formula?

Thanks






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orc
orc


Known Hero
posted August 30, 2014 03:24 PM

Hello

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whitebeard
whitebeard


Adventuring Hero
posted August 30, 2014 03:42 PM

Yolo

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted August 30, 2014 04:02 PM

Yeah, creature specialties in H3 are ridiculous. What really matters is initial army count and speed bonus. If you start with Galthran or Shakti, this +1 attack can make a difference at some point of the game. Otherwise it will not.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted August 30, 2014 09:05 PM

A few more heroes benefit from speed and additional numbers, Tyraxor, Tyris or Ivor come to my mind. Nice heroes for multiplayer.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 30, 2014 09:58 PM

orc said:

is wog planning to maybe edit that? actually whats happening in wog? cuz it also seem no updates are coming or anything?



WoG had no plan by itself, some modders yes.  If you see no updates, then you are blind; in the last year more than 50 new mods were uploaded, porting the total wog/era mods to more than 100. Each modder has its own vision and will build his own mods to match that.

Up to you to do same and everyone will benefit.

I agree, creature specialty sucks, but with wog it really does not matter. You can focus on other details enhancing the game-play.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 01, 2014 09:07 AM
Edited by Maurice at 16:08, 02 Sep 2014.

orc said:
Archer 6 3 : each level +0.6 attck +0.3 def
little discussion
so the last one, compared to archery, he has 3% bonus dmg each level, whereas archer do 2.5% each level. but this also give defense. now you might say archery much better, but archery dont give defense. archery dont give speed. archery dont give starting army. well, now it might be comparable a bit more now to archery. in any case its less useless at least.


Note that the Archer specialty only applies to the Archers, not to the Zealots. The Archery skill applies to all ranged units.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted September 01, 2014 10:42 AM

Warmonger said:
Yeah, creature specialties in H3 are ridiculous. What really matters is initial army count and speed bonus. If you start with Galthran or Shakti, this +1 attack can make a difference at some point of the game. Otherwise it will not.


In my VCMI mods I made creature specialists more useful - they give not only attack/defence skill/speed bonus to spec creatures, but also +1 morale/luck and health/shots bonus and ability to upgrade unupgraded spec creature to its upgraded version. This makes creatures specialists more useful on last stages of game.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 01, 2014 10:54 AM

Nope, will change nothing as long as the whole game dynamic remains as it is.

Piles of resources give 3-6 units (for wood/ore up to 10) and most expensive dwellings don't exceed 10 resources. Thus building level 7 dwelling is only a matter of short time. Having level 7 monsters invalidate any other low creature specialties as you will easily clean the map with, backed by the OP mass slow.

The only solution, probably for a Heroes 3.6 game, would be something close to limit the monsters level one hero can carry to his own expertise. A hero level 1-10 should not be able to carry anything else than level 1-3 creatures and for every 5 levels add one creature level. Something like that, but it also requires modifying the templates progression. Easy to say, long to test without doubt.

Being unable to play with the lev 7 toys now, players will start to look into low level specialties until they reach high levels. Additionally the cost of such dwelling could also be raised.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 01, 2014 07:08 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:41, 01 Sep 2014.

Sal said:

The only solution, probably for a Heroes 3.6 game, would be something close to limit the monsters level one hero can carry to his own expertise. A hero level 1-10 should not be able to carry anything else than level 1-3 creatures and for every 5 levels add one creature level. Something like that, but it also requires modifying the templates progression. Easy to say, long to test without doubt.

Being unable to play with the lev 7 toys now, players will start to look into low level specialties until they reach high levels. Additionally the cost of such dwelling could also be raised.



I must say I find strange to desagree with you in matters of balancing issues but this solution would affect Strongold and Fortress, the two towns that have only level 3 mage guilds. Only guessing what was the original idea but behemoths and wyverins prerequisites are low to allow a player using this factions to have high level creatures first week. Now, if heroes need to be at very high levels to use them this becames ineffective.

A solution I see is to make players pay upkeeps for army and them make a discount to creature speciallists on their own creatures.


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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 01, 2014 07:37 PM

Didn't say it would work neither. Just explaining why low specialties are not worth today and what could be the direction to make them worth.

Not gonna happen anyway.

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orc
orc


Known Hero
posted September 06, 2014 04:21 PM

Sal said:
orc said:

is wog planning to maybe edit that? actually whats happening in wog? cuz it also seem no updates are coming or anything?



WoG had no plan by itself, some modders yes.  If you see no updates, then you are blind; in the last year more than 50 new mods were uploaded, porting the total wog/era mods to more than 100. Each modder has its own vision and will build his own mods to match that.

Up to you to do same and everyone will benefit.

I agree, creature specialty sucks, but with wog it really does not matter. You can focus on other details enhancing the game-play.


1-) I meant recently. cuz I saw lot of old sticky threads and lot of broken links. but maybe I didnt search enough. I have 3.57 or something (forgot the number).

2-)How can I do mod of what I think here? (sorry to be noob)
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Maurice said:
orc said:
Archer 6 3 : each level +0.6 attck +0.3 def
little discussion
so the last one, compared to archery, he has 3% bonus dmg each level, whereas archer do 2.5% each level. but this also give defense. now you might say archery much better, but archery dont give defense. archery dont give speed. archery dont give starting army. well, now it might be comparable a bit more now to archery. in any case its less useless at least.


Note that the Archer specialty only applies to the Archers, not to the Zealots. The Archery skill applies to all ranged units.


Noted. it would still have some benifit even if its not that great


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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 06, 2014 04:53 PM

orc said:
2-)How can I do mod of what I think here? (sorry to be noob)


IMO modding start with the ability of correctly quoting. Your post is unreadable.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 12, 2018 12:37 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:26, 16 Jul 2018.

I know this an old thread, but I just needed to mention 5 heroes:
Melodia - What is the point of Fortune, when she already has Luck?  Dragons are also immune to Fortune. (Even when encountering Arch Devils in HotA, her Luck would be +1, so her special still would'nt do anything.)
Uland - The Cure special is'nt worth much, level 1-6 units can easily be healed anyway. Level 7 will get an extremely small HP bonus, from Cure specialty. (And dragons are immune to Cure.)
Inteus - Okay he might work for other towns, especially Necropolis or perhaps Fortress, but for Conflux 3 units are immune to Bloodlust and out of the remaining 4, 2 are ranged, making Bloodlust only useful to Sprites and Magma Elementals.
Ciele - Okay she might be good for early exploration, but as soon as she learns Ice Bolt or Lightning Bolt her special becomes obsolete. When she has so much Power and Knowledge, why would she not cast a more powerful spell than a meager Magic Arrow…
(Astra - Cove hero - See Uland.)

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orc
orc


Known Hero
posted July 12, 2018 03:03 PM
Edited by orc at 15:04, 12 Jul 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
I know this an old thread, but I just needed to mention 3 heroes:
Melodia - What is the point of Fortune, when she already has Luck? Green/Gold Dragons are also immune to Fortune. (Even when encountering Arch Devils in HotA, her Luck would be +1, so her special still would'nt do anything.)
Inteus - Okay he might work for other towns, especially Necropolis or perhaps Fortress, but for Conflux 3 units are immune to Bloodlust and out of the remaining 4, 2 are ranged, making Bloodlust only useful to Sprites and Magma Elementals.
Ciele - Okay she might be good for early exploration, but as soon as she learns Ice Bolt or Lightning Bolt her special becomes obsolete. When she has so much Power and Knowledge, why would she not cast a more powerful spell than a meager Magic Arrow...


When Melodia vs arch devil + HotA + Mass misFortune LOL xD

BTW why dont u go for HC messenger?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 12, 2018 04:28 PM

Well in Melodias case that is VERY situational, to put it mildly.

HC Messenger?, I do use it, why?

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 16, 2018 06:06 PM

All Conflux heroes have mediocre specialties: no level 1 or 2 creature specialists that could be useful and instead 2 for each of the less useful, giving a flat bonus. No Offense, Armorer, Logistics, Intelligence or any kind of very useful specialty. But all magic heroes starting with magic schools and sufficient amount of power and knowledge when you have the need to build the magic guild quite early, makes some of them quite useful for early start. There are no Elleshars nor Gundulas here, muss less a Crag Hack, but there no Torosars and Melodias, either.
The unbalance of the town is too strong for single maps but that is much less true when you can't use a super-hero from another town to lead the army it produces, like it happens in the campaign.
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