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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Death penalty yes or no?
Thread: Death penalty yes or no? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2014 02:28 PM

Baklava said:
Swift justice aside,


Oh come on...I could link to thousand of videos showing how US police is executing people, its famous brutality and lack of proper training, and how tiny are your chances to get alive in court and BE JUDGED, if you provoke them.

Only from this perspective of clear impunity, Iran or China are way ahead in terms of "civilized".

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 28, 2014 02:45 PM
Edited by artu at 14:56, 28 Sep 2014.

That's totally irrelevant when it comes to defending executions based on their cost. Police executions are a derivation from the system, the thing discussed is what the system should be.

And nobody, including death penalty advocates, supports police executing people without a trial. I wouldn't assume it's very common practice either.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 28, 2014 04:05 PM

It's silly. There are worse things than death but the society fears it so much that instead of a severe torture that leads to death,it provides comfortable "fear".
Btw i am pro sentence. Someone gets to do heinous crimes and he ends up in jail well fed and sheltered by the tax payers' money? Hell no!

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted September 28, 2014 04:44 PM

Who cares about higher court costs? Money is like water, it flows back and forth between government, citizens and commerce. You only harm your country when you buy foreign stuff.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 05:28 PM

kayna said:
Who cares about higher court costs? Money is like water, it flows back and forth between government, citizens and commerce. You only harm your country when you buy foreign stuff.


Whaaaaat?

No, the money government spends on courts is money that's stolen from the public.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2014 06:36 PM

artu said:
That's totally irrelevant


What is irrelevant is to back any argument by studies performed in USA only, then suggest they should be considered as some universal standard (is USA now a model of democracy?! let's not dig into details or this forum will explode).

The example about Iran is relevant why we shouldn't put our nose in what we don't understand, nor give moral lessons to those praising different values while in their mother land.

Back to main subject, at least from a technical perspective: once death sentence is part of a judicial system, IMO there shouldn't be any artificial extensions necessitating endless trials or high costs.

Crime type A, B and C being under death penalty range, you just apply them as quick as you apply jail for crimes D,E and F and penalty fees for crimes type G, H and I.

But, if you doubt about its fairness or efficacy, then discard it and play the moral issue. Some will even proclaim it is a proof of becoming civilized, but I wonder how negating a such natural human vector as vengeance can make you look more civilized.

As victim, you will end terribly frustrated.




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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 28, 2014 06:43 PM

Quote:
Back to main subject, at least from a technical perspective: once death sentence is part of a judicial system, IMO there shouldn't be any artificial extensions necessitating endless trials or high costs.

On the contrary, once death sentence is part of a judicial system, there should be as much extensions and trials as possible, to completely rule out the possibility that an innocent man is found guilty. (or even that there are some mitigating circumstances that lower it to an imprisonment crime)
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2014 06:50 PM

It depends on the crime type. Let's take some issue on which almost everybody agrees: Breivik.

Should the society offer enough trials to Breivik until he is found 100% guilty?

Up to the society to classify crimes types ranges and gravity until they do not create a bankrupt. And as I said, if you can't be sure of the outcome, you discard it.

What annoys me is when some people claim that discarding death penalty is a proof of becoming civilized. While it only is a proof of our limited perception of the crime, then the inability to properly deal or punish about.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2014 06:59 PM

Just to add: personally I have no opinion on death penalty.

Instead I have very precise ideas on how prison time should work and believe that they should be put to hard work 18/24 hours, build roads, homes, schools and hospitals. Without pay, comfort, weed and swimming pool.

Make prison time, if not rewarding for those inside, rewarding for those outside. As it is now, it serves no one.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 28, 2014 07:04 PM

USA is one of the democracies, yes, and not a fake one either. The efficiency or the theoretical and practical differences between how a democracy works is a much bigger discussion, every system has its flaws. However, the point is, baklava is right to give examples from US and exclude blatantly authoritarian regimes like China and Iran, because that is a whole different level of judicial system that the debaters here openly reject and don't want for themselves anyway. If death penalty is going to be legal, it's going to be so, in a democracy that they live in. So the costs should be calculated by those standards.

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted September 28, 2014 08:14 PM

Tragic as it is that opinions of certain people annoy you, Sal, I'll still underline that dealing with crimes properly can't be equivalent - in an even mildly civilized society - to "expensively, inefficiently and without regard for innocent lives that would be lost to our populist parade of vengeance". Whereas the more you lower the "expensively" factor, the more you increase the "without regard for innocent lives" one.

Social injustice and police brutality in the USA isn't an argument against this. It's simply another thing to root out in a civilized nation. Similarly, the fact that the USA leads an aggressive, crusading foreign policy while disregarding a lot of its own domestic problems and holes in its supposed liberalism, can't quite make lashing people for dancing with the other gender look civilized.

Back in the day, being civilized pretty much came down to taking a bath every once in a while. The idea is that we occasionally raise the threshold. Which is not to say it can't fall again. Civilization is a shifting thing.

Now I want you to take a step back and look at this sentence you typed.

I wonder how negating a such natural human vector as vengeance can make you look more civilized.

Now read it again, but with "crouching and taking a shyte whenever you feel the need to, and then proceeding down the road without wiping your arse" instead of "vengeance".
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 08:24 PM

You can have the the death penalty with short cheap trials or with some semblance of rigorously proving that the accused is guilty, but you can't have it with both at the same time. If you don't want to execute more innocent people, then the trials process is going to be expensive - there's no getting away from that.
Also, execution doesn't do anything for the victims or their families. They were the ones who were wronged, so they should receive some kind of restitution from the criminal - something the death penalty doesn't do.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 08:42 PM

mvassilev said:
so they should receive some kind of restitution from the criminal - something the death penalty doesn't do.


you can't slap a dollar sign on just anything. life is priceless, especially the lives of loved ones. that's my personal opinion, anyway.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted September 28, 2014 08:48 PM

xerox said:


Whaaaaat?

No, the money government spends on courts is money that's stolen from the public.


Just take a 0.001 % slice off that military budget bro.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 08:58 PM

fred79 said:
you can't slap a dollar sign on just anything. life is priceless, especially the lives of loved ones. that's my personal opinion, anyway.
If you really thought life was priceless, you'd never drive, because you're risking lives (others' and your own) for your own convenience, people would never choose to eat junk food that makes them more likely to die early, etc. People make tradeoffs that clearly display that they don't consider even their own lives to be priceless (otherwise, the desirability of these tradeoffs would be undecidable), and that's fine.
Also, just because it's difficult to assign a value to life doesn't mean the victims' families shouldn't receive receive restitution. Life has a high value, so if anything, the criminal owes them a lot. Instead, they get nothing.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 28, 2014 09:05 PM

Something being priceless does not mean it is also risk free. At least everyone's own life is priceless to themseves since they cant enjoy any price without it but that doesnt make them live in a vault trying to avoid every astronomical possibility of death.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2014 09:20 PM

If someone I love was brutally and cold blooded assassinated, I would ask for vengeance and expect that person to root in flames before injection. If the state does nothing, I would certainly take things in hand because this is how I would feel. Looking to death sentence through history we see its roots being about outpour the victim's kinfolks.  

Let's not forget that death penalty is usually "awarded" to extremely violent and psychopath people, not for stealing strawberries during school lunch. Comparing this to snowting in public attitude is funny, point taken,  but remains intellectual bragging, ie I can control my emotions, you can't. Of course, errors may subsist and innocent people may die. Yes, is sad and unfair.

But with the system "no 100% sure, no condemn" you have no choice but let back into society true criminals which will start over again and again.

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 28, 2014 09:33 PM

That's the difference between us, I guess, I'd rather let a criminal back into society and take the chance that he will strike again, than have the blood of one innocent man on my conscious.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 09:43 PM

mvassilev said:
If you really thought life was priceless, you'd never drive, because you're risking lives (others' and your own) for your own convenience, people would never choose to eat junk food that makes them more likely to die early, etc. People make tradeoffs that clearly display that they don't consider even their own lives to be priceless (otherwise, the desirability of these tradeoffs would be undecidable), and that's fine.
Also, just because it's difficult to assign a value to life doesn't mean the victims' families shouldn't receive receive restitution. Life has a high value, so if anything, the criminal owes them a lot. Instead, they get nothing.


life is priceless, based on personal subjectivity. i have a problem thinking that one can feel better, collecting ****ing cash for restitution from a murdered loved one, instead of a pound of flesh. i personally, would prefer the pound(s) of flesh.

and, i never said that a stranger's life was priceless. i was speaking in terms of loved ones only. which goes back to the subjective nature of what is being discussed.

besides, as artu said, you can't avoid life, just because it could mean death. the argument in your first paragraph makes absolutely no sense. you DO know how ridiculous that was, right?

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 28, 2014 09:57 PM

The death penalty can't be defended on practical grounds, for it is not practical.

The death penalty can't be defended on moral grounds, for it is immoral to force your morals on others.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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