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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 03:55 PM |
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verriker said:
Stevie said:
Hahaha. Is that why you used "Kimmundi" rather than the first person pronoun "I"? Good one  
yeah I think that might just be the joke hue hue hue
You actually did level-up to huehuehue instead of lols. It is a magical time.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 25, 2014 04:19 PM |
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Protolisk said:
You actually did level-up to huehuehue instead of lols. It is a magical time.
It is quite the upgrade yes !
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 25, 2014 04:22 PM |
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Galaad said:
Protolisk said:
You actually did level-up to huehuehue instead of lols. It is a magical time.
It is quite the upgrade yes !
He must have upgraded his dwelling.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 25, 2014 05:25 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Galaad said:
Protolisk said:
You actually did level-up to huehuehue instead of lols. It is a magical time.
It is quite the upgrade yes !
He must have upgraded his dwelling.
So now we can not only recruit Verrikers, but also Santa Verrikers? 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 25, 2014 05:42 PM |
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Maurice said:
So now we can not only recruit Verrikers, but also Santa Verrikers?
No, no, no. The upgrade of Verriker is Pretend Erwan.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted November 25, 2014 06:12 PM |
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I would love to be able to hire Hamsters in Heroes VII. They got their weeks in both Heroes V and VI. Furthermore, in Heroes IV we got this secret model of a granny, so why not include something like this in Ashan...?
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 06:37 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
I would love to be able to hire Hamsters in Heroes VII. They got their weeks in both Heroes V and VI. Furthermore, in Heroes IV we got this secret model of a granny, so why not include something like this in Ashan...?
Berzerk Combat Hamsters are the neutral we all deserve.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 07:40 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 25 Nov 2014. |
Edited by TD at 20:15, 25 Nov 2014.
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Random skills have been part of the very core of the HoMM-series. Please re-make the h5 system re-make to fit this game! It was a great system where skill of players and planning in advance played a great role. It was all about playing the odds.
Random skill-system
Random skills requires players to adapt to situations and make do with what they got/get. Random skills will make people try out different abilities and skills. It will also encourage in trying different tactics and strategies when the boosts and abilities don't support players "normal" choices in units. You will get skills in different order some suiting your game currently some probably not so much, but it makes all the games a bit different. If you cannot plan ahead you will probably also end up with some skills you didn't intend to use, making the games more different from each other and also more challenging at times. Needing specific skill at a time may end up costing you in the future if you can't follow your plans, but it's simply a trade off you may end up paying in future skills if you gotta take something unplanned to survive some tight spot. It's all part of the charm when playing heroes. This is all part of your skill as player, understanding how the system works and working with it. Lots of the problems you can avoid and control, but there is still small element of luck involved in games to keep them from being too repetitive.
Problems with non-random skill-system
If you decide to go with non-random I have to point out some things:
1) You will need to cut down the skills and abilities effectiveness, same with ultimate skill if it is present. This will make the skills very bland and not so rewarding.
2) If you choose to keep skills as they were before some stronger, some weaker and powerful ultimate skill you will create same problem Heroes 6 faced: Optimization. It will drive people into finding the best skills and the order of the skills. This will greatly eat out the re-playability of the game when you will end up picking the same skills over and over again. People are created to optimize, even if you will offer different paths to ultimate skill it will still come down to optimization.
In games before h6 some skills were clearly better than some others, but it was still quite balanced because they weren't so easy to get. Getting those skills just made them that much greater accomplishments and it felt great when you saw that special skill/ability appear on screen you had been waiting/hoping for when you got a level up. In non-random system it's just cherry-picking whatever you want and you know when you're going to get it. It just never felt like any kind of accomplishment in h6 when you got your implosion, time trap, luck III or whatever you were gunning for. You already knew it 5 turns ago that yeah, next I'll get that, then that and then that... H6 systems biggest problem was that it got incredibly boring really fast as you learned which skills do what and there was no real reason to take the less useful skills. Simply putting it, it just felt so empty and boring.
I understand that you(devs) want to make non-random system as it is:
a)Easier to do since it doesn't require creation of random algorithm and balancing will be easier in non-random.
b) It's better for story since you're probably heavier on the RPG side(considering your history with M&M X: Legacy), but please realize that to many of us it's TBS with some RPG influences, not the other way around. To me personally it's foremost TBS hotseat game, then TBS single-player and as 3rd story/campaign with more RPG side.
c) You want to make this game easier so bigger public will buy it. The problem is that Many of older fans like me don't want the game to get too easy and simplified. H6 tried to do that very hard and you seem to be on the same line, just not taking it as far as h6 did. You can create fan-base for more complex and harder game-play also that truly requires some skill. Do you really want to be just like every other similar game? Randomness is one of the key aspects that has seperated HoMM-games from other games and a big reason why it still has such active fan-base.
Basics of h5 random-system
In h5 it wasn't as random as many people seem to think. It was based on probabilities. You were playing the odds, but it wasn't about pure luck. If you want to get to the ultimate skill you need to first check what you need along the way. The skill-wheel(external info-wheel) would help you plan how to build the skills and it also showed which heroes started with what.
All the skills had their own chance to appear at level-up. The skills most fitting of the faction had 15% chance while skills not fitting faction had 2% chance. The rest of skills were in between 2-15% depending how suitable and/or important they were. The external skill-wheel that came with the game, made by fans also showed the odds for different skills.
Once you know what you need you will start playing the odds. When you level up there are few things you should keep in mind:
1) Always grab the required new skill if you see it(even if you don't want it at this moment since it might take long time to get it again)
2) If no required new skills are available, take the abilities you need. If you have no correct abilities level up your skill(since you always get chance for new skill, level up old skill[if any no fully leveled] and two abilities.
2.5) Try leveling up the racial abilities first as they are required on some other skills. Also in general try to level up the abilities in order you will need them for the build(for example orcs needed attack abilities and racial abilities to level up all leadership abilities needed for ultimate racial skill)
3) Try to keep skill levels as low as possible so the chances of getting bad abilities from 2 different skills are as low as possible.
These instructions also work in general if you need/want specific skills for your build. All you really needed to do is plan ahead and follow the instructions.
I urge you to revise your decision to go with non-random skills! Please base the skill-system on random skills like games before h6. You can add something like memory mentor from h5 so the system isn't completely unforgiving to less experienced players. Also things like witch-huts and universities could be implemented where you could get skills by completing quests, paying for them or fighting for them. You can even add non-random skill-system as optional, but don't base the system on non-randomness. Random skills have been and still are part of the very core that keeps many players still playing older HoMM-games. Heroes 6 is practically already dead and one of the major contributions to that is the skill-system of the game. To me it's like a slap on the face making the system non-random by default and saying MAYBE you can get random-skills as optional when it sure as hell should be the other way around! You said this game is return to the roots, but are you sure it's not return to heroes 6? It seems to be your biggest influence by far from the past games, this skill-system change would show a clear signal that you're listening to fans and really returning to the roots of the series (as in h3 and h5 like you have said).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 07:42 PM |
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#GURS
Or it's not Heroes.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 25, 2014 07:53 PM |
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yeah agreed with both, this Blizzard skill tree garbage is not what I want in the games either
same pre-planned build for the same heroes in every scenario lacks personality, it's objectively boooooring
much as you guys may think you know the series better than NWC and even Nival ever did, please give us random skills back, thanks
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 25, 2014 07:58 PM |
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Thank you TD, that's a golden post speaking about RS if I've seen one
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 08:05 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:06, 25 Nov 2014.
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I will boycott each new blog entry with #GURS propaganda until the devs take notice and decide to give us what we want.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Darkem
Known Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 09:13 PM |
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Not all of us want "GURS" to happen, and I hope it's not going to happen... Should we start campaign "NoRandomSkillsSystemPlease"? It's ridiculous.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 25, 2014 09:13 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
what is #gurs?
Give Us Random Skills
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 25, 2014 09:20 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:21, 25 Nov 2014.
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Darkem said:
Not all of us want "GURS" to happen, and I hope it's not going to happen... Should we start campaign "NoRandomSkillsSystemPlease"? It's ridiculous.
Protolisk said:
I know I am in the minority, which is why I brought up the option. I wouldn't say we should have only NRS, as that'd displease a great number of people.
Maybe we could keep the propaganda for mmh7 (as not much else works there) and keep being constructive here 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 25, 2014 09:31 PM |
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Hm, some say random skills, some say fixed skills, but what about a middle path? This would be a mix of H4 and H6 systems, with say 7-8 superskills (of which you might be able to choose 3-4) that you get given at random, and within that you have almost total control over which subskills and perks you get.
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted November 25, 2014 09:34 PM |
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@TD You are right right about random skills they are somewhat more exciting but I also remember that while playing H5 for the life of me I couldn't get the ultimate class skill because through every replay of the dwarven faction campaign I couldn't get the right skills, given in ToE it was sorted out lower lvl requirement and the introduction of the Memory Mentor. But I see why some people didn't like it and why the devs. decided to adopt the non-random skills but it lead to the problem you have written about.
The problem I had whit H6 non random skills is that throughout the campaign you were limited to certain level therefore making the choice really arbitrary you didn't know how the ultimate skill in the tree would play out.
I would have gone with a different approach meaning no level restriction and would have created scenarios that would have required you as a gamer to chose different skills like a map full of dark creatures making you choose light magic to counteract them or limit on numbers of units you could carry making reinforcement more useful, the DLC had some degree of that but the main campaign not and at the start of new scenario I would have started with just more experience example:
first scenario hero starts at lvl 1
second scenario you start from lvl 5 but you make the distribution of the according skill points.
3 scenario lvl 10 etc.
Now I am not saying that I like the non random skill tree or find it good as it was but as I said in a previous post I would make it a option to choose before a map start random/non random.
Also if I would be fair the random skill I would make it so that before the map start I would have the option to choose which skill will be present for me from the pool with the given racial/faction restriction. What I mean by that if I wanted to make a Mage I could choose from the whole pool 3 schools of magic from which I have high chance of getting, or one choice would always be from said tree, a skill and the other randomly from the computer chosen random schools/disciplines during the game when leveling up so that I would have a degree of control of what I'm getting(assuming it would be 5 total of schools with 3 different levels of mastery and 3 complementary skills like H5) but I don't know how it's planed out for Heroes VII
In my eyes this would be good compromise and that would mean you have to think it trough, based on the map size/type if is land/sea etc., the skills you want and what game you will aim for(rush/late game)
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 25, 2014 11:12 PM |
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verriker said:
yeah agreed with both, this Blizzard skill tree garbage is not what I want in the games either
same pre-planned build for the same heroes in every scenario lacks personality, it's objectively boooooring
much as you guys may think you know the series better than NWC and even Nival ever did, please give us random skills back, thanks
Not a single "lol" or "hue" in that post! Verriker, are you feeling okay, buddy?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 25, 2014 11:27 PM |
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Maurice said:
Not a single "lol" or "hue" in that post! Verriker, are you feeling okay, buddy?
heh
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
