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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1635 pages long: 1 200 400 600 ... 727 728 729 730 731 ... 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 1635 · «PREV / NEXT»
RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2015 02:06 PM

My post about H6 wasn't so serious, but I was serious about fatal errors and crashes.

I've played a bunch of H6, also played Elvin's(?) Duel Maps as I enjoy multiplayer and competitive side of the game a lot more than campaign. The game had a lot of problems which is the reason why replayability wasn't even close to the H5/H3, and I don't think just about crashing bugs and problems, but balance, design and lack of content as well.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 12, 2015 02:17 PM

LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
but quick-combat is the key to avoid that (and it speeds up gameplay at the same time )


Playing heroes with quick combat isn't playing heroes



Although I think the option is good and should exist either way, I do think there's something amiss if you feel like using it or if it's usable too much. Makes it feel like battles are uninteresting or predicable or too easy. Although when the differences are extreme, it would be logic, still, the unpredictable factors in which small troops could, yet, lay some damage on huge troops is never present, it seems, due the simplicity of Heroes map layout and mechanics.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
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TDL
TDL


Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
posted April 12, 2015 02:24 PM

PandaTar said:
LizardWarrior said:
Quote:
but quick-combat is the key to avoid that (and it speeds up gameplay at the same time )


Playing heroes with quick combat isn't playing heroes



Although I think the option is good and should exist either way, I do think there's something amiss if you feel like using it or if it's usable too much. Makes it feel like battles are uninteresting or predicable or too easy. Although when the differences are extreme, it would be logic, still, the unpredictable factors in which small troops could, yet, lay some damage on huge troops is never present, it seems, due the simplicity of Heroes map layout and mechanics.


Well, in whatever version, if I saw I could manage without getting losses by clicking the quick combat, I would just because most of the time in later game when you have superior armies and you encounter very low level critters, it just snows me off to fight them.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 12, 2015 02:31 PM

Certainly. The current Heroes setting vouches for such feature to speed up processes. If it was more complex, maybe the game could be more interesting altogether. Who knows. ^^
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted April 12, 2015 05:09 PM

Quick combat option is a must imo. It speeds the multiplayer games in LAN. Besides, you use it only on battles that are not important anyway, important battles I would not take any chances. Quick battles usualy end in you taking more losses that required so...

There will always be those battles in strategy games, that are just moping things up. Quick combat is great in this situations. Besides it's an option. Having an option does not mean anyone has to use it. As long as it's not mandatory, it's good, and I'm always for extra options - as they bring no harm.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2015 05:49 PM

Dave_Jame said:


And Green drag ... User name usualy = mail adress :-D it takes both, and you can ask the support for help. IDK how much you paid for the game but i'm not the person who would let such cash just go down the drain :-D


Usually yes I actually have H6 on my shadow council account but the expansion is on another account which I only have the username and password for. There is no 'Email-Recovery" option either...

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted April 12, 2015 07:30 PM

My favorite bug was when i got a black screen entering combat and i had forgotten saving e.e

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 13, 2015 03:16 AM

I must admit, people arguing in favor of a simplistic skillwheel really piss me off.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2015 04:15 AM

Stevie said:
I must admit, people arguing in favor of a simplistic skillwheel really piss me off.


On one hand, I get where you are coming from. Pure simplicity, though easy to understand, can be underwhelming, and possibly un-fun.

On the other hand, it's a preference, just as yours seems to be more towards the complex. So I must ask why people expressing their opinion, just as you are, has such an enraging effect on you (although right now, it's your opinion about their opinions).

Now, I liked the H5 wheel (though it never was wheel shaped in game itself) but I also like the idea of the H7 wheels. My problem so far with the H7 wheel is that the abilities unlocked majorly are exclusive rather than inclusive (if Warcries, as it stands, is anything to go by, with 5 abilities affecting 1 cry, and 2 affecting all 5) which was different from H5's abilities in where an ability tended to affect at least 2 if it was in a spell school (to which I imagine Warcries are, the "might" magic school).

I like having faction specific perks and traits, but at the same time, I don't care for prerequistes, for they tend to make skills homogenized all the same (Elven Luck being my go-to example). I feel this kills diversity itself. These faction specifics, plus the prereqs, are what I assume to be the traits of a "non-simplistic" wheel.

Would a wheel without prereqs, but have more faction specific abilities, please you? Even if it is still the 10/30 for 36 classes as in H7? This, personally, would please me greatly, but, would you deem it too simplistic?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 13, 2015 04:42 AM

No, it wouldn't please me. Look, we had both faction specific abilities and prerequisites in Heroes 5. I'm not about to accept a tradeoff. No matter how you'd look at it, the end result would be a downgrade from Heroes 5. So instead, I want them both and the skillwheel improved. That's would be a proper upgrade.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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NamelessOrder
NamelessOrder


Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2015 07:47 AM

Stevie said:
I must admit, people arguing in favor of a simplistic skillwheel really piss me off.


i've noticed that people at this forum often get irritated at others opinions because they get fanatical about their ideas.

Anyhow i can understand Ubi's devs decision. I remember that H5 skills system wasn't obvious for me at the very beginning. I had to read manual to get it - which is not a desired effect. Almost every game genre got simplified over the last decade and the same happens with TBS. As i said previously - most people play games differently than 15 years ago. They (myself included) expect quicker playtime and easier-to-grasp mechanics.

Now i dont know what kind of perks system is ideal (as you know i'm not really a map mode player) but i can say this:

- we don't need many skills - if you look at H6, most chosen skills were passive +x to attack/def magic attack/def luck/morale and spells + warcries - they made around 20-25 out of 30 abilities. Since in H7 we have magic guilds and warcries are learnt passively when leveling warcries abilities, how many relevant abilities there can be? I just don't wanna see those pointless abilities like Offense which are just +x attack written differently
- whatever the system it has to be obvious - maybe some proper visual representation would help H5 system
- Warcries looks awful - they are basically mass buffs. H6 warcries were much more interesting even if not properly balanced.


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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2015 07:48 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 13 Apr 2015.
Edited by Protolisk at 08:00, 13 Apr 2015.

Stevie said:
No, it wouldn't please me. Look, we had both faction specific abilities and prerequisites in Heroes 5. I'm not about to accept a tradeoff. No matter how you'd look at it, the end result would be a downgrade from Heroes 5. So instead, I want them both and the skillwheel improved. That's would be a proper upgrade.


I would agree even the system I just said is a down grade in complexity from H5. However, you keep saying prereqs are a good thing, which I oppose. There were few times where prereqs even made sense in H5, with the only things I can think of where when things like Master of Conjuration had more perks that sort of built off of it, since they all dealt with "summon elemental". Besides these, there were few abilities where their prereqs made sense. Why does Preparation need Tactics? Their effects aren't even close to each other, one allowing you to deploy units a bit further up, the other was a pre-emptive strike. They didn't really make sense as an upgrade. If your reasoning is "Well, duh, of course you need Tactics to Prepare!" then I'd like to ask why tactics is only needed for that, and not any other tactical maneuver in any other ability. It's needed for Offensive Formation, but not Defensive Formation for Runemages. What makes Offensive Formation more "tactical" that it needed Tactics to achieve that Defensive Formation didn't? Instead, why does Defensive need your units to be a bit healthier to work. Does 2 health really make the difference for all those dwarves to learn how to defend better? They don't really mesh.

Why does Vitality, a health buff, allow for you to learn a spell at advanced level, with Power of Endurance? Why does Pathfinding, an ability to just move through rough terrain, need to be learned in order to get an upgraded Teleport, or even allow you to just learn teleport without a mage guild? It doesn't make a lick of sense. These abilities all make sense, sometimes, in the same category, but they themselves have little to do with one another, they don't really build anything beyond "they are defensive in nature", or "they are movement-based" which is a bit broad a definition. Compared to the plethora of fire abilities (that you need Master of Fire to get, of course) where they are more fire based rather than "destructive" based. Some work, most don't.

Even among the faction specific abilities, some make no sense. What part of Diplomacy allows Golems and Warmachines to understand morale? Because Wizards need diplomacy to get Artifical Glory, but that's not really much of an upgrade at all to an ability that allows you to barter with neutrals better. Or why does Remote Control need Catapult to be learned? Especially when Remote Control doesn't even work on enemy catapults. They are just given a prereq because H5 requires all advanced and expert abilities to have some prereq of some kind, even if the best reasoning that it can come up with is "they are both morale related" which means nothing because the abilities are already in the same skill, of course they have to be related. The few times this changes are mostly for the old Destructive and Summoning schools, because they could be divided better (fire/air/water) That's mostly moot now, because a whole school is by itself now. If anything, there may be direct damage, buffs, and debuffs in each school now.

And even beyond the sensibility part of them, they still reduce diversity, something people keep bringing up time and again with this new system. Yes, having 10/30 skills for a hero reduces it's skill diversity as opposed to that hero being opened up to 25~ of the 30 (because racials). But once you get to a skill itself, the diversity dies down in the prereq section. Do you actually want Remote Control? Then you NEED Catapult, no way around it. Did you want the balistae upgrades, or the healing tent upgrades, or one of both with Remote Control, hoping that maybe the war machine you remote control can get the perks of your abilities? Nope, you can't have that. Any Wizard that wants Remote control must get Catapult. So now you have three options, get the balista upgrade, the healing tent upgrade, or the last catapult upgrade. I mean, what's actually effective for Remote Control? Wouldn't it make sense that you'd want to actually upgrade the things you were getting abilities for? Too bad. What if you actually wanted Catapult and it's upgrade? Too bad; Wizards don't even get that. The seige upgrade they do get though, necessitates you having to take Remote Control, even though Remote Control and seige abilities have absolutely nothing in common beyond being war-machine related. With prereqs, if you want a specific ability, there's only so many ways to get to it, even if the things in the way suck or don't mesh. Without the prereqs, you can actually focus on the things that work together better.

Perhaps this is the fault of H5, and not prereqs. But even in your proposal post back in the Skillwheel theory crafting thread, you still wanted each and every advanced/expert (or expert/master) rank ability to NEED a basic perk. And some weren't even in the same skill, such as the Scholar to Enlightenment ability thing. Great, you know what really reduces diversity? When a ability needs not one, but two skills to be gained, meaning you are now stuck to needing 2 skills used up for the pay off of what most abilities only need 1. So any hero that wants this perk will be sharing at least 2 schools. In the same faction? Three, likely, because of the same racial. Yes, I love replaying this system, because if I want a skill, I'm forced to take other skills! Much choice! Very diverse!

Personally, if I was told that one system requires you to follow a path through trees in order to achieve, as opposed to one where it allows you to experiment freely and with less restrictions to achieve on your own, then I'd say the one that needs you to walk along a path of trees is much more simple than one that allows you to run through the forest freely. One may lead to success more readily, sure, but then, what's the point of choices if you could just easily reach the goal as outlined? I'd prefer experimentation.

The only redeeming quality is the "effect over cost" factor, which can add in some planning, but, if an ability really needs to be strongly effective to require a specific path to reach it, then what choice do you have? It's a skill that is that powerful, you are missing out without it. Why aren't you getting it now? Great diversity there. If it's cost is equal to all the other abilities in proportion to other skills, then great: you got one maybe crap skill and one good skill for its cost compared to what could have been two good skills compared to their cost. If its effect isn't even cost effective... then why even try to obtain it? There would be other things that don't need that much cost for lessened effect. People like getting the biggest bang out of their buck: people are indeed drawn to getting the strongest set of skills and abilities, because they want to win. This is the same problem in H7, and was in H5, and in all systems, until you take human choice completely out of it. Otherwise, you'll get people who just learn how to manipulate the system to get what they want anyway. So what's the point? If you're going to get what you want, then why would you want to wrestle with a randomizer anyways, along with needing very specific paths to choose an ability? The randomizer barely stops you then, so what was the point of the randomizer? Only guess I can see is possibly weeding out people who "just don't get it", which will make them stop playing the game, or perhaps they'll adapt to manipulate the system like everyone else, and... now everyone is getting what they want. The randomizer did what again? I suppose it could also make you adapt. Not any actual game-play factor, such as neutrals, resources, terrain, yours factions resource costs, units, spells acquired, specialties, or your enemies' factions, play styles, their spells and units, specialties, or anything else might make you try to change your standard to get a more well adapted build for the job. But, no, we want a computer to make these "adaptations", even though you have enough gameplay on your plate. The oft repeated quote is "No plan survives contact with the enemy". No where should that say "No plan survives contact with those making up the plan". The funny thing is, now H7 also has a system that does remove human input for skills, and thus the "I will build my hero to what I want" problem can actually be removed. But that was seen as a "Why not let the computer play the game itself?" function, which is what the random skills essentially do on a lesser level: the computer chooses some skills from many, and you just choose the one you want out of the ones it wants. It could have chosen out of 15 skills or 60 odd perks, but you could only choose 1 of 4 out of the choices the computer made. Are you playing more, or the computer? Imagine it the other way around: You choose 4 things that you like out of all that are selected, and the computer picks one of those. Are you now playing more than the computer was in the initial random selection model? Wouldn't the final step in that thought process be that if you solely choose your skills, you'd be... playing the game yourself?

I can get behind some prereqs, but the vast majority make no sense. And, no matter how you look at it, prereqs can only hinder diversity of classes. Faction specific abilities, that's always a factor in increasing diversity. I actually like those. But prereqs complicate things where there doesn't need to be; it's complexity for complexity's sake. I can only sort of see randomness to an extent, but you are already getting randomness now, so that's a moot point.

I suppose if you want my "perfect" skill wheel idea, it'd be kinda sorta like H5, with large skill selection, faction-specified perks, but no prereqs. If prereqs were indeed a thing, then they have to make sense. Which is very hard to do for all abilities all across the board, because even a few oddballs make the system seem fishy. So, I suppose, the better solution is that not all abilities need a prereq, only where they make sense.

I actually enjoy when people argue their stances. It's nice to see the other side sometimes.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 13, 2015 08:31 AM

I agree, the H5 pre-requisites were not planned very well. I find it important to have pre-requisites in the skillwheel but in a way that basic abilities promote a certain theme and advanced abilities expand upon it. The more the pre-requisites a wheel has, the more confusing it gets. But two advanced abilities in two of the three basic abilities(depending on faction) would work nicely as long as they promote a sense of direction. And as long as you the amount of abilities you can pick from a skill is limited so that you actually have to prioritize and plan ahead.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted April 13, 2015 08:53 AM

You know, I always found it curious that Empathy for many factions required Arcane exaltation, lol.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted April 13, 2015 09:03 AM
Edited by Avonu at 09:12, 13 Apr 2015.

Actually H5 skill wheel was planned quite well. The problem is that its not-so-random system didn't work (always basic and advanced abilities to choose during level up) and the main problem: H5 skill system was planned when each skill could have 4 abilities and you could pick them all even with basic skill (as opposed to H5 vanillia when you needed expert skill to choose 3rd ability).
It was changed during beta to 3 abilities per skill (and basic/advanced ability per level up system was also added), but skill wheel wasn't updated to changes (as maaaaaany things in H5 ) and that's why some heroes coulnd't even imagine to pick up Ultimate ability... not to mention that Dungeon heroes couldn't take Counterspell until some patch fixed this.
During beta you could also preview what abilities each skill gives and what other abilities you need to get advanced once - you know, the same thing which skillwheel mod gives to players now, but back them it wasn't necessary.
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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2015 11:57 AM

I do agree that h5 didn't have the most logical ability requirements always. I still wouldn't call it badly planned, quite the opposite. If you wanted the ultimate ability you had to sacrifice some of other great skills/abilities to get it. If h5 had been done in similar style to h7 skill-wheel it would've allowed the creation of ultimate hero with nothing but cherry picked abilities making basically 1 build you want to strive for. Optimization was already problem in h6 and with the current round skill-tree unfortunately it seems to be coming back. In h5 you have several builds that are roughly equal some using ultimate ability and some without for all factions.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 13, 2015 12:24 PM

About the H5 skillwheel, it can be agreed that the abilities requiring other abilities were sometimes strange. But you also need to see that H5 was the first Heroes game to have abilities, so that can be somewhat overlooked. Even if they did re-do the skill wheel in Tribes of the East, I may only think about to have even better skill wheel would take a lot of time and planning, which the devs may not had.

And it isn't just abilities that can be scoffed. There were just a couple of warcries in Tribes of the East. While new, fresh and innovative, it feels due to the number there were the devs put it near the end of the development.

The way H7 skills are going, it would've been slightly better to have H3 system; just skills and nothing else. People may still scoff they don't like the non-random system. If it is that such a problem, a table could've been done so they can pick skills (not certain how interesting that sounds for others), even if Heroes games' skills are randomly chosen.

Or perhaps the problem lies in the Ultimate skill, as why does it even exist. When I was younger and more foolish, I just wanted that skill. But now I feel how monotonic it sounds. It may be even better to have skills that contemplate each other, boost each other's effects and give new ones.

Heroes games are yet to be perfect and flawless, but hey, each one has his/her own visions.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 13, 2015 12:50 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 12:51, 13 Apr 2015.

Protolisk said:

I suppose if you want my "perfect" skill wheel idea, it'd be kinda sorta like H5, with large skill selection, faction-specified perks, but no prereqs. If prereqs were indeed a thing, then they have to make sense. Which is very hard to do for all abilities all across the board, because even a few oddballs make the system seem fishy. So, I suppose, the better solution is that not all abilities need a prereq, only where they make sense.


Yep, there's also the possibility for skills to increase synergy and effect between each other, even when they're not prerequisites. They might not be direct linked, but they can help enhance themselves in different ways, perhaps even creating a combined perk, I daresay. These perks would, then, be linked to the hero specialization or class-oriented or race-oriented. This gives many opportunities to make a hero more unique, even when two of them have the same class and same selected skills. They would be somehow different, rather than just portrait, bios and specialization (which still sucks in many presented cases so far). Just an idea.

Quote:
Or perhaps the problem lies in the Ultimate skill, as why does it even exist. When I was younger and more foolish, I just wanted that skill. But now I feel how monotonic it sounds. It may be even better to have skills that contemplate each other, boost each other's effects and give new ones.


Yeah, that. ^^
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2

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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted April 13, 2015 02:42 PM

In my opinion, current system can be really good and effective under those conditions:

- the highier te skill, the more powerful and effective it is (worth spending time and ponts on investing, satisfaction of  becoming even stronger)- at alfa version many skills, even on grandmaster level, seemed tro be just not attractive adn not even better than those on novice level. Besides, instead strict + x number I would see in some cases + x%


- some level restrictions preventing fromm immediate rushing one skill and mastering it- by that forcing also to invest in other skills

______________________________________________________________


I would also see some changes that would make it much more interesting

+ some minor synergies between skills would be well welcomed (minor, not forcing the player to absolutely choose a skill)- but not connections, lines or whatever- no restrictions in that department, just some perks

+ possibility to master chosen 3  grandmaster skills (including faction skill- so 2 chosen ). Player should have possibility to decide which skills should be levelled up to grandmaster level (

+ no skills that are without master abilities (there are so)

+ some option to choose skills cause magic skills are far too limited and by that focusing on magic is rather not possible and beneficial



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the_green_drag
the_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted April 13, 2015 02:45 PM
Edited by the_green_drag at 17:04, 13 Apr 2015.

I just don't like the fact they seem to bind themselves with these hero classes. A h4 approuch would have been better. Starting out as either a might or magic hero and depending on what skills you pick up determines your hero class. Each faction would have it's own set of starting skills to pick from which would limit the available classes but still offer most of them. After becoming a certain class then more skills can open up, skills that cannot be 'Mained'.

I agree with what's said about the h5 Pre-reqs. The only reasoning behind a list of Pre-reqs that I see, is they prolong the hero obtaining some skill that is much more powerful. So the solution being: don't make skills too powerful. Small bonuses work best in this game anyway, especially since there are so many ways to increase creature production. Things like definite lucky strikes doesn't belong.

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