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3lion
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 03:15 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 15:16, 09 Oct 2015.
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Petiknight said:
No, I was refering on cases when the enemy attacks your main, and there are forts with few local guard units on his way. It was a suggestion, to reduce the waiting time, 'till the enemy finish your units, you are forced to fight, and there is no autobattle option. It can be on any map such situation, where are gates and forts located.
Why one would prefer to give up this battle instead of trying to reduce enemy's army before he enters your land?
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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 03:18 PM |
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3lion said:
Petiknight said:
No, I was refering on cases when the enemy attacks your main, and there are forts with few local guard units on his way. It was a suggestion, to reduce the waiting time, 'till the enemy finish your units, you are forced to fight, and there is no autobattle option. It can be on any map such situation, where are gates and forts located.
Why one would prefer to give up this battle instead of trying to reduce enemy's army before he enters your land?
Yes, its fair question. Well the local guard numbers sometimes are so few, that you sometimes cannot kill a single enemy unit, especially if the enemy Hero is pretty strong. I personally prefer if it will be an option to simple ignore and loose this battle.
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airodinamic
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 03:22 PM |
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Im wondering is this patch going to be 11 gb as well. not that it matters that much but honestly thats almost the size of the game 
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 03:27 PM |
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Petiknight said:
3lion said:
Petiknight said:
No, I was refering on cases when the enemy attacks your main, and there are forts with few local guard units on his way. It was a suggestion, to reduce the waiting time, 'till the enemy finish your units, you are forced to fight, and there is no autobattle option. It can be on any map such situation, where are gates and forts located.
Why one would prefer to give up this battle instead of trying to reduce enemy's army before he enters your land?
Yes, its fair question. Well the local guard numbers sometimes are so few, that you sometimes cannot kill a single enemy unit, especially if the enemy Hero is pretty strong. I personally prefer if it will be an option to simple ignore and loose this battle.
I see your point.
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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 03:37 PM |
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3lion said:
Petiknight said:
3lion said:
Petiknight said:
No, I was refering on cases when the enemy attacks your main, and there are forts with few local guard units on his way. It was a suggestion, to reduce the waiting time, 'till the enemy finish your units, you are forced to fight, and there is no autobattle option. It can be on any map such situation, where are gates and forts located.
Why one would prefer to give up this battle instead of trying to reduce enemy's army before he enters your land?
Yes, its fair question. Well the local guard numbers sometimes are so few, that you sometimes cannot kill a single enemy unit, especially if the enemy Hero is pretty strong. I personally prefer if it will be an option to simple ignore and loose this battle.
I see your point.
By the way your unit size-mod is awesome. Huge thx for that, I hope you will do still some "magic" with the editor. 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 09, 2015 04:41 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 09 Oct 2015. |
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GenyaArikado said:
Why are the 7 magic schools bad again? Because they have less spells?
Among other reasons:
- Less spells per school. Something that is furthered aggravated by the overall low amount of spells featured in all three Ubisoft Heroes.
- Less spells per school also mean a more troublemaking Magic Guild. In H7, we see problems when it reaches level 4 spells, where sometimes you get a spell from a school you didn't specialise, but the one that faction prefers. Having two spells in level 4 would easen this problem, but with the limited amount of spells there are in game it just gets worse.
- More skills required just to be able to learn from all seven Schools. This makes designing the skill system a more difficult task, which leads to more restrictions for Magic Heroes.
Now, I know in H7 Ubilimbic tried to lessen this issue through the hero class system, with 6 classes per faction, each hero class could have had different set of schools in their skillwheel, but it ultimately failed in their implementation.
- Less uniqueness Schools. It is much more difficult to make 7 Magic Schools unique and feel different from each other. In H7 they are jack-of-all-trades, and I feel it is better when choosing one or another School changes your gameplay (see Elvin's post about Light Inferno or Sylvan Inferno, etc).
Now it is possible to keep the 7 Magic Elements of Ashan, but group the spells across 4-5 different schools, overcoming those issues. I believe H5 was in the right track with their approach (Light Blessings, Dark Curses, Summoning and Destructive; Prime could be a fifth), it just needed to take a bit more from Heroes IV Spell System, where each of the 5 schools featured a distinct theme and yet they weren't restricted to it (for instance, read this).
What's more, this system would make all these silly lore restrictions such as Haven Guild not offering Dark spells or Haven heroes not being able to learn Dark spells a lesser punishment to the player, since whatever School you are mastering will still have spells from other elements.
Hell, even magic immunity would no longer mean that one stack is immune to every single spell from the school you mastered.
I only see advantages in reducing the amount of Magic Schools and separating Schools from Elements.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 09, 2015 04:46 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 16:47, 09 Oct 2015.
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@Storm-Giant: A good post, my friend. I definitely agree on that one. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 09, 2015 04:48 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
@Storm-Giant: A good post, my friend. I definitely agree on that one.
+1
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 05:27 PM |
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Edited by bitula at 17:31, 09 Oct 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
- Less spells per school. Something that is furthered aggravated by the overall low amount of spells featured in all three Ubisoft Heroes.
...
But in terms of core mechanics it is much easier to add additional spells and skills than increasing the number of schools. So even if currently the choice seems bad after say two expansions it will turn out to be good.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 09, 2015 05:53 PM |
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bitula said:
Storm-Giant said:
- Less spells per school. Something that is furthered aggravated by the overall low amount of spells featured in all three Ubisoft Heroes.
...
But in terms of core mechanics it is much easier to add additional spells and skills than increasing the number of schools.
Well, that's what's been happening all along. They added schools and not spells. That's what's he pointed out.
Quote:
So even if currently the choice seems bad after say two expansions it will turn out to be good.
There are margins for improvements, if they ever glimpse them.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 06:18 PM |
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PandaTar said:
Well, that's what's been happening all along. They added schools and not spells. That's what's he pointed out.
My point was: they can add them later. But they can’t add schools later. So a broader framework is always better.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted October 09, 2015 06:56 PM |
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Although the H7 release was quite catastrophical, I am convinced Ubi can still fix this game if they get enough money and time to Limbic or another studio to do it.
But the question is: UNTIL WHEN?
Vote here: http://strawpoll.me/5651600/
If you don't think Ubi can still fix the game, you can vote for this possibility for sure.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 09, 2015 07:18 PM |
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bitula said:
Storm-Giant said:
- Less spells per school. Something that is furthered aggravated by the overall low amount of spells featured in all three Ubisoft Heroes.
...
But in terms of core mechanics it is much easier to add additional spells and skills than increasing the number of schools. So even if currently the choice seems bad after say two expansions it will turn out to be good.
I have to disagree, for two reasons:
1) You are assuming there will be two expansions. That in both expansions they will dedicate resources towards the addition of new spells. Heroes VI is the prime example you can't rely on the future, you need to set sound core mechanics at release (they may or may not work, but that is to be addressed after release). Not to mention promoting a badish Magic system for the Vanilla version is begging for problems.
2) Expansions can add spells to both systems, so a more reduced amount of Magic Schools does benefit from it too. Now, what about the other points I brought up? Magic Guilds, number of hero skills, School uniqueness?
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2015 03:12 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
*le post*
I understand and i agree that 7 schools arent exactly needed, although frankly i do wonder if thats a result of lore ruling over gp or if it isnt a developer decision coated with lore. As i said before, the H6/7 gp does trick me and i THINK its easier to learn (but then again i was younger when i played H3/5 or the first time) since i actually likdont mind Heroes being easier, but i understand why it might upset more hardcore players.
I only have played necro campaign so far but i dont get the big deal about the dark magic and knights thing. Are they literally unable to cast those spells or just unable to spec dark magic/get dark magic spells from haven towns? Because if its the later i dont see the big deal.
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etore
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 10, 2015 04:12 AM |
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Quote:
Are they literally unable to cast those spells or just unable to spec dark magic/get dark magic spells from haven towns? Because if its the later i dont see the big deal.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2015 04:27 AM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2015 09:42 AM |
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While Storm-Giant made a nice post, it's covering things only from a certain angle.
It's basically backwards oriented. What Ubisoft and large parts of the crowd here doesn't seem to grasp is that there is only frustration waiting in looking backwards. Heroes 3 has already been made; there is no gain in trying to emulate that or even Heroes 5. If you want to advance you need a different angle.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 10, 2015 09:43 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
While Storm-Giant made a nice post, it's covering things only from a certain angle.
It's basically backwards oriented. What Ubisoft and large parts of the crowd here doesn't seem to grasp is that there is only frustration waiting in looking backwards. Heroes 3 has already been made; there is no gain in trying to emulate that or even Heroes 5. If you want to advance you need a different angle.
And what angle are you proposing, then?
I already made mine. Keep the schools, but ONLY IF to expand gameplay (number of factions, different tier system etc.).
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2015 10:04 AM |
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I'm not a game designer, I'm not paid for game designing - and while I could immediately lay down a satisfactory game design, I'm not going to do this because it has no purpose, because it won't transfer into a game. The point is, that Ubi/Limbic failed to do so. They failed to do what's necessary to make H7 a game that ADVANCES the brand, and what is more, the choice of "theme" - past again - plus the "best of" touting show that it was a deliberate decision.
They made H7 an irrelevant, meaningless game.
Heroes 6 at least TRIED to advance the brand - of course their ideas, or part of them, are debatable, but the game didn't fail because of that, in hindsight I think the job was just too big for BH to manage. After H5, H6 had the budget and the assets, but they picked the wrong studio to do it. A lot of time and money was wasted simply with the effort to make the full game even work.
This time around they seem to be a lot less ambitious, but then the result is as mediocre as the ambition.
And for me, who is 20 years with the brand ... I fail to see a logical basic design idea behind the game. To me it looks like someone put a couple of bricks somewhere, painted them nicely and then said, ok, now fill in the rest, somehow.
As I already said, from a design point of view, having 6 Heroes per class 6 or 7 magic schools for each faction, 3 of them magic, it's simply unacceptable that the heroes of a faction are unable to work with 2 of the 6. If there were only 2 heroes for each faction, you would STILL wonder why, if your 2 heroes had access to only 4 schools, why things were done that way. With 6 hero classes, 3 of them magic, it's not unacceptable, it's a failure.
That simple.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 10, 2015 03:16 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Are they literally unable to cast those spells or just unable to spec dark magic/get dark magic spells from haven towns? Because if its the later i dont see the big deal.
Haven Heroes cannot get Dark Magic as a School skill on the skillwheel and regardless of how much Arcane Knowledge they have, they will never get Dark Spells in their spellbook.
Etore showed a picture of a Haven Hero with a Dark Spell in their spellbook, but if you look closely, it's due to a spell scroll in the Hero's inventory.
I've made sure to get Dark Magic spells in the Mage Guild of some other faction and hired a Haven Hero. While all other spells appeared in that Hero's spellbook, the Dark Magic spells were absent.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
