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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted March 02, 2016 11:52 AM |
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about spell balancing
- increase mana cost of spells 
Tsunami is already 50 mana lol. Heroes with lower spellpower need to cast that cyclone/tsunami over and over again and most of the times they lose in the end because the mana was depleted.
- cooldown
I agree with Elvin here. Balancing can be done without this.
- balance the damage 
That is exactly what is needed because sometimes the outcome is determined from the beginning and the other side has no possibility to win. I recall particularly battles with armageddon.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 11:59 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:03, 02 Mar 2016.
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In all honesty, Disciples 3 Reincarnation was a good game to me and it saddened me deeply seeing the project discontinued. If they even got the Mountain Clans in it would've been complete and I would've moved on from Disciples 2 with a satisfied mind.
It's interesting seeing how Disciples 3 made some similar mistakes to those of Ubi era Heroes. For example the transition to a realistic adventure map with real-size map objects and models, or the fact that the skill system became such a cluster****, but by comparison I felt such changes to be less distressing. There was also the major change in combat map, which at first I found acceptable but now I think it was a grave mistake, nothing short of a bad innovation / change for the sake of it at the expense of the game's identity and core appeal (sounds familiar?).
On the other hand, it did some things well where Heroes only screwed up. Testament to that is the flanking and interception system, where they had frontline units with cover points which acted like taunts. It was sufficiently good enough to ensure some worthwhile tactical approaches and not the back and forth dance we see in Heroes 7. Then there was another system which I found amazing - splitting the damage sources according to types which was also present in Disciples 2 to a lesser, more unbalanced extent. Even AoW3 does it and it's genius, and I have argued in favor of it for Heroes to no avail. But probably the biggest, most crushing difference is the fact that Disciples 3 had a very powerful atmosphere, both aesthetically and melodically, and a well written story for the campaign - things which put Ashan to shame.
But I guess the most important thing to say about Disciples 3 is that unlike Heroes 6 or 7 the game still holds the power to call me back and enjoy it some more, and I think that speaks more volumes than anything else.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 02, 2016 12:24 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
HVII is excellent game. Far superior to HVI and HIV and better than HIII. I cant wait for expansion!
I'm afraid you'll have to.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 12:31 PM |
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I fully agree with you, Stevie, but ultimately and paradoxically D3's problem is more or less at least based on the fact that Disciples 2 Gold is such a great game.  (When you make a follow-up for a really great game you need a great concept, and that's where I point to AoW 3 with regard to AoW 2 SM; they took their time, UNTIL they had that magic ideas and the result has been worth the wait.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 12:33 PM |
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natalka said:
about spell balancing
- balance the damage
That is exactly what is needed because sometimes the outcome is determined from the beginning and the other side has no possibility to win. I recall particularly battles with armageddon.
With what do you want to balance it? No matter how much damage a spell does, it will always be overkill for some armies, balanced for armies slightly bigger than that and not enough for armies bigger than THAT.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 01:08 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
And this amount of circle jerking makes this forum is a parody of good gay porn sites.
I hope that if this gets and xpack or that if we get an H8 after Vivendi buys Ubi they dont dont Axeoth stories. I'm not interesting in a world whose story died in 2002
"HUR DUR OLD UNIVERSE HAD UNIQUE STORY IT HAD ALIENS!" It's not 1995 anymore and literally all the settings with aliens did it better than M&M (Sacred, Warhammer, Warcraft, etc)
"HUR DUR IT WAS UNIQUE AND CREATIVE!" It's a snowing DnD ripoff and it will ever be, deal with it.
"HUR DUR ASHAN IS GENERIC" Find me the order obsessed spider worshipping buddhist inspired necromancers and then we'll talk
"HUR DUR ASHAN LORE IMPACTS 2 MUCH THE GAMEPLAY" Your thick skulls still dont grasp that lore is shaped around whatever gameplay changes they wanna do? The only "set in stone" stuff are the things that have a below 0 chance of happening like Demons and non-fallen Angels in the same lineup
"HUR DUR DISCIPLES 3, CIV BEYOND EARTH AND AOW3 ARE BETTER" The first had a snow tier release and it two xpacks to fix, the second managed to reach "some nice stuff but still blander than tofu" even after the xpack and the third took over a decade to come out.
The game flopped hardcore because it was poorly done, the setting is not to blame for that and returning to 1995 wont make it better. Worse things have been saved or at least made decent as Dis3 and CivBE show.
I hope that quantico or w.e. can make his HoMM ripoff and it's snowING GOOD so for once you dont have vapid argument.
I MISSED YOU! MARRY ME! (and i thought was the only one rambling about circle -jerking here )
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted March 02, 2016 02:24 PM |
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I'm very interested in future of Heroes VII.
We'll get second part of Axeot stories and then?
"This is the end" (c) Adele
Or we need just to wait for new patches and addons?
Or we should even not wait cause of Vivendi?
Time of uncertainty.
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 02, 2016 02:37 PM |
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Valen-Teen said:
I'm very interested in future of Heroes VII.
We'll get second part of Axeot stories and then?
"This is the end" (c) Adele
Or we need just to wait for new patches and addons?
Or we should even not wait cause of Vivendi?
Time of uncertainty.
I think one expansion with skillwheel and stupid dwarves and then end of series lol
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted March 02, 2016 02:38 PM |
bonus applied by OmegaDestroyer on 02 Mar 2016. |
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Frankly, I've never cared about Heroes lore, and never met anyone who did until the Internet. I enjoy the fantasy atmosphere and setting, as far as it relates to the factions, creatures and somewhat heroes. But I've never been invested in the lore or background story. It's a game involving magic and fantasy creatures. Not so that everything makes sense, but to create the parameters for a good game. It's not a story-driven RPG with strategic elements, but a spin-off strategy game with a background story.
Ubisoft made things very hard for themselves when they introduced Ashan and made Heroes the flagship game in the M&M universe. Now the lore needed to be explained and story developed in the Heroes games. The lore was not an addition for those interested, but was made more and more prominent for each subsequent game. I find that development in itself negative, but unfortunately it also impacts gameplay and variety even more negatively.
My argument is not that the previous universe had a better story (even if that is true as well), but that the previous universe didn't get in the way of the game. Everything didn't have to be explained. There was not a detailed background story for every creature and why the different creatures constituted a faction, although some were more intuitive than others. That meant creatures could switch factions and abilities without creating problems with the script. With Ashan they try to rationalize a fantasy world. Erwan is pretty frank about that. They tro to make their universe resemble ours, removing clear-cut good and evil boundaries, having racial factions, heavy use of religion and politics etc. The motive might be a good one, but the result is not. I compare it to the Star Wars franchise. HoMM is Episode 4-6 where "the force" just exists and the backstory is not well know, but mysterious. MMH is Episode 1-3 where "the force" is rationalized with midi-chlorians, and the mysterious history turns out to be blander that what you imagined (that will almost always be the case).
Ashan puts heavy restrictions on lineups. You can't just mix "races" willy nilly based on well known fantasy creatures (either from ancient mythology or D&D). Instead they invent different varieties of orcs, elves, dwarves etc. to suit their needs. That eventually leads to the similar lineups and abilities we see in H7. If you think of it as play-dough; in HoMM you had a lot of pre-made figures that you could tweak and mix as you pleased. That led to unique combinations of creatures and abilities. In Ashan you have 9 different colored doughs, and you have to make your own figures for each color. Human creativity is limited, so you will inevitably end up with similar looking figures in different colors. For H6 and H7 they even used the exact same figures, only re-painted.
Then you have art design and atmosphere on top of this, but I won't delve into that.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 02, 2016 02:54 PM |
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Zeki said:
Could you maybe refrain from using the word "circle-jerk" so often please? Everytime I read it I get some really disgusting images in my head
What I don't understand with this term is that, it's not like we're enjoying complaining, seriously, I'd rather play a new Heroes game that I can enjoy and I think this goes for all of us.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted March 02, 2016 02:55 PM |
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JJ, they are always some boundaries. For example week 5 army from 2 castles should not be killed that easily. Spells are the most damaging ever in the heroes franchise or maybe I am wrong.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 02, 2016 03:13 PM |
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@Brukernavn: Such a well argued opinion on Ashan and its flaws, I find myself thinking much like yourself
It's a shame that your post will be drowned by the idiotic mood this thread/forum has been suffering for a while
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 03:20 PM |
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I didn't play the game enough to really know what the exact problem is, but imo the game concept (not only the H7 concept) is flawed, when you want to add depth to the kind of low-HP simple carnage that was H2.
In H2 (and of course in H1 as well), things work because you have a comparatively LOW INCOME! And that's no matter how mayn towns are there. Think about it - in H2 a town earns 1000 gold (you can increase to 1250, but that costs a lot of Ore and therefore comes with a price).
Also, there are VILLAGES in the game, in which you cannot build anything and brings only 250 Gold - you have to build the - what is it called? Fortress? - first, and that costs 5000 Gold und 20/20 W/O, not an easy investment...
Without going further into detail here - the economy is a lot more restrictive, which means you are severely limited in buying/building and therefore in army size. I mean, you can produce 3 Titans (if you manage to build and upgrade the building), and a Titan costs 5000 gold + 2 Gems.
So with very simple words - you can have a balance between might and magic and comparatively small armies (in HPs) or you can have big armies and an unbalanced game, at least with the mechanics in place.
That seems difficult to understand, because it was the beloved H3 that screwed the balance in the first place, massively adding HPs, increasing gold and army sizes, but leaving the rest unchanged.
It's deeply flawed, that's what the problem is.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted March 02, 2016 05:00 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 17:03, 02 Mar 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
AOW3 (...) took over a decade to come out.
Lol, what kind of argument is that? I would wait for another Heroes game even 20 years if it was at least half the quality of AoW 3.
GenyaArikado said:
"HUR DUR OLD UNIVERSE HAD UNIQUE STORY IT HAD ALIENS!" It's not 1995 anymore and literally all the settings with aliens did it better than M&M (Sacred, Warhammer, Warcraft, etc)
Aside from some H4 stories I've never thought of the M&M universe as exeptionally well written (rather the nostalgia factor makes it look good in my eyes), but even a generic setting with charm is way better then the irritating, forget-they-even-existed characters of Ubi Heroes games. And the whole world feels "souless", it has nothing to immerse me (maybe only the dragon gods, but those are not exposed too much, only in some dialogues). Sometimes a simple but solid setting is enough to make a game keep going in terms of atmosphere. Ubi Heroes games don't even have that...
GenyaArikado said:
below 0 chance of happening like Demons and non-fallen Angels in the same lineup
Now that would be something. There never was such a faction, this would be fun!
GenyaArikado said:
then they could just hire him to write about Ashan lol
Yeah, then the crown would fall from their heads...
But even with all those Ashan and plot gimmicks put aside Heroes VII is simply a bad game with no heart, and has nothing to offer aside from some basic mechanics which we've already seen in many other games.
PS: Disciples 3 was incredibly boring, it offered almost the exact same faction line-ups as D2 (lazyness), and it changed the battle system, something which made the previous games unique. Whole game felt like lesser D2 (which I'm a fan of) with just better graphics, so I'm not sure about your "they made it better post-launch' with the whole 'Rebirth' s*it, cause the game was poorly designed at it's core...
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 02, 2016 05:26 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 17:28, 02 Mar 2016.
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blob2 said:
Now that would be something. There never was such a faction, this would be fun!
Infernopolis 2.0?
You're darn right it would be fun 
Wish I could get into AoW3.
It's not a bad game by any means, it's just me being intimidated by all the micromanaging and upkeep stuff
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 05:53 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
Though I know it is pointless talking to you, I will ask you one thing. Have you ever played Gem's campaign from H3SoD? If you had, you would realize that there are both sorceresses and druids in the old world, and that the lore didn't say: druids are the only spellcasters connected to nature based towns...
ofc. But gp-wise they basically were replaced by druids. And in Axeoth Sorceress became the CHAOS town magic hero, just like Warlock became the inferno town hero.
Quote:
And that makes AoW3 a bad game? LoL!
No, but it makes AoW3 budget larger since it's a "comeback" videogame, just like H5 budget was larger. I like AoW3 lol
Elvin said:
@GenyaArikado
2) I was crearly talking about the writing, not the setting.
3) The skeletal lich was a U turn from the discussions that had taken place. Can Ashan liches be skeletal? Nope. Can there be an alternative method that produces skeletal liches? No. How about less skeletal? Yeah no. RAGE!!! Ok, enjoy your skeletal liches.
So the point is, had the lore been adaptable none of the above silliness would have taken place.
Warlocks are not about the name. Dungeon magic heroes have always been heavy nukers and they were changed into goth dark casters. Sorceress and druid class was more or less the same, only with a different theme. I am all for gameplay evolution but that's just weird, might as well make barbarians defense-based.
Minos are another silly example. In Ashan an iconic ability means the unit will ALWAYS have it. Obviously that was about gameplay except it shows what they know because it throws the balance out of the window! It (somewhat)made sense in the H6 tanky mino but less on the H7 offensive mino.
About swamp factions, you probably missed the official statement some time ago. Ashan, 9 specific factions, end of story. They only changed their mind after seeing the fan reactions and made up those silly excuses. Again, this would not have been necessary if the lore was left vague on that matter.
1. Thank you for agreeing with my point then
2. Exactly, we got a compromise between lore and what SC fans wanted. The lick looks skeletal but he/she isnt really. Everyone's happy. That's being "adaptable". Even then, lore wise there are ways to have the skeleton lich, they just dont do them yet to keep Sandro special
3. Does being goth remove the "Heavy nuker" part? lol. Even then Warlocks still are, they just moved faction lol.
4. H7 was poorly designed gameplay wise in several aspects just taking straight from H6 without context. However, you're still wrong. The Naga always had no-ret for example, it was a gameplay decision. Same applies with minotaurs, just that it has a lore coating.
5. You said it yourself, they "changed their mind". I assume that they arent particually thrilled about adding a new faction but they did say the continent we're in it's just one, not to mention the post DM potential. Idr if Ashan already has lizardman beyond the Cabir, but 5/7 Fortress creatures are already in the setting so even then it wouldnt be too hard to make it a sub division of Stronghold
Avirosb said:
Nah, not really. Seems a tad bit like a hyperbole to be honest.
his example not mine
Datapack said:
The thing is those games had good games prior, we had H6.
Also those games were not in any way near the state H7 was in at launch and you seem to have a hard to accept Heroes 7 is a bad game(especially when comparing it to the older titles), whether its a Heroes game or not it is literally bottom of barrel trash.
Yeah we had H6. Can you explain how does this relate to my point
Are you still talking about Civ and Dis3 or you had to switch topic because you couldnt hold your point? No where i have said that H7 was a good game, in fact i said "H7 was poorly done" although i believe that with effort and work it could be turned around and made good or at least decent like disciples 3 did CivBE were respectively. Personally i enjoy the game but i wouldnt say it's good (and i havent) lol.
Stevie said:
In all honesty, Disciples 3 Reincarnation was a good game to me and it saddened me deeply seeing the project discontinued. If they even got the Mountain Clans in it would've been complete and I would've moved on from Disciples 2 with a satisfied mind.
It's interesting seeing how Disciples 3 made some similar mistakes to those of Ubi era Heroes. For example the transition to a realistic adventure map with real-size map objects and models, or the fact that the skill system became such a cluster****, but by comparison I felt such changes to be less distressing. There was also the major change in combat map, which at first I found acceptable but now I think it was a grave mistake, nothing short of a bad innovation / change for the sake of it at the expense of the game's identity and core appeal (sounds familiar?).
Ew dwarves
But yeah, i agree that both snowed up big time. I think the reason Akella put such an effort to make D3 work is because they're small and cant afford the flop, unlike Ubi who can just move on, which is an awful mindset.
blob2 said:
Lol, what kind of argument is that? I would wait for another Heroes game even 20 years if it was at least half the quality of AoW 3.
read above
Quote:
Aside from some H4 stories I've never thought of the M&M universe as exeptionally well written (rather the nostalgia factor makes it look good in my eyes), but even a generic setting with charm is way better then the irritating, forget-they-even-existed characters of Ubi Heroes games. And the whole world feels "souless", it has nothing to immerse me (maybe only the dragon gods, but those are not exposed too much, only in some dialogues). Sometimes a simple but solid setting is enough to make a game keep going in terms of atmosphere. Ubi Heroes games don't even have that...
nice opinion, mine's worth the same
Quote:
Now that would be something. There never was such a faction, this would be fun!
i wouldnt mind it, after i did make a thread about "Mixed ashan factions" lol. But i'm not everyone
Quote:
Yeah, then the crown would fall from their heads...
not getting your point
Quote:
But even with all those Ashan and plot gimmicks put aside Heroes VII is simply a bad game with no heart, and has nothing to offer aside from some basic mechanics which we've already seen in many other games.
i already expressed my thoughts about H7
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 06:05 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
In H2 (and of course in H1 as well), things work because you have a comparatively LOW INCOME! And that's no matter how mayn towns are there. Think about it - in H2 a town earns 1000 gold (you can increase to 1250, but that costs a lot of Ore and therefore comes with a price).
Also, there are VILLAGES in the game, in which you cannot build anything and brings only 250 Gold - you have to build the - what is it called? Fortress? - first, and that costs 5000 Gold und 20/20 W/O, not an easy investment...
Without going further into detail here - the economy is a lot more restrictive, which means you are severely limited in buying/building and therefore in army size. I mean, you can produce 3 Titans (if you manage to build and upgrade the building), and a Titan costs 5000 gold + 2 Gems.
Very well put and my thoughts exactly! That is what makes h2 the most fun heroes game to play for me, Limited resources and the way things were balanced. It's also that way in H4 which makes it a lot of fun.
The warlock clearly had the best units but were too expensive to afford so you have to search harder for extra resources as opposed to the knight who has much cheaper, and weaker, units to train. And the knight doesn't have much to search for except for crystal. Some factions were just more difficult to play and had better pay offs in the end. Of course that doesnt mean a knight cannot defeat a warlock, learning a faction's strengths and weaknesses used to be a big part of the game. Back when everything wasnt the figgin same unlike h7...Now it just depends on what skills the hero has leveled, units dont matter, economy doesnt matter....
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 06:05 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Wish I could get into AoW3.
It's not a bad game by any means, it's just me being intimidated by all the micromanaging and upkeep stuff
Nah, upkeep is something happening automatically; it's simply been deducted, and you see your net income. You can hover the mouse over that, and then you will be simply shown how that figure comes to pass.
It's a factor only when you have a very low amount of towns (or vassals) and a very blown up military in comparison.
It's not more micro-management than in Heroes figuring out what you can spend so you can still build that dwelling you need to have asap.
On the other hand, even a really simple battle isn't boring, because units are not healed magically after a battle - each race has their own regeneration rules, and you have to be very careful not to jeopardize your ability to fight (if your units become too damaged they are prone to die, and since in AoW unit can get an unlimited amount of XP (and actually profit as well), the loss of a unit is not only a loss of Gold/Mana, but also a loss of XP.
You can't really go wrong - it's in the sale bin at Steam (or at least it was a couple of days ago).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 02, 2016 06:08 PM |
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The_Green_Drag said:
JollyJoker said:
So with very simple words - you can have a balance between might and magic and comparatively small armies (in HPs) or you can have big armies and an unbalanced game, at least with the mechanics in place.
That seems difficult to understand, because it was the beloved H3 that screwed the balance in the first place, massively adding HPs, increasing gold and army sizes, but leaving the rest unchanged.
It's deeply flawed, that's what the problem is.
Very well put and my thoughts exactly! That is what makes h2 the most fun heroes game to play for me, Limited resources and the way things were balanced. It's also that way in H4 which makes it a lot of fun.
The warlock clearly had the best units but were too expensive to afford so you have to search harder for extra resources as opposed to the knight who has much cheaper, and weaker, units to train. And the knight doesn't have much to search for except for crystal. Some factions were just more difficult to play and had better pay offs in the end. Of course that doesnt mean a knight cannot defeat a warlock, learning a faction's strengths and weaknesses used to be a big part of the game. Back when everything wasnt the figgin same unlike h7...Now it just depends on what skills the hero has leveled, units dont matter, economy doesnt matter....
Yup. It's not rocket science - or is it?
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted March 02, 2016 06:19 PM |
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phenomenal post Brukernavn
i really hope somebody at ubi sees it.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
