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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted April 01, 2016 07:56 AM |
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If I look at it objectively, I must agree it is strange that H7 is in most of regards not better than H5 ToE (I see only flanking, story and some minor improvements and graphics) and in many other regards even worse.
But I can still enjoy H7 campaigns.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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BurntPhoenix
Hired Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 08:09 AM |
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alcibiades said:
The point is: At least H6 tried to move the game.
Change is good. Change for this stagnant series would be good, if fundamentals and spirit were preserved too. Just can't trust Ubi and their development team to get the change 'right', as H6 still fell flat.
I'd like to see some of the innovations introduced by H4 built upon (I believe Quantomas is interested in this for his Heroes of the Ancient Order project).
[*Really, I commented to praise that snowing sweet Heroes 2-style Gold Dragon. Looks like just a re-color but still great. Its iconic, commanding presence with a sense of the elegant and kingly. Is that being used in a mod?]
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted April 01, 2016 08:33 AM |
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please folks, instead of losing all these awesome comments on camera angle in here it would be wonderful to save  them in one place
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 01, 2016 09:00 AM |
bonus applied by Brukernavn on 01 Apr 2016. |
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BurntPhoenix said:
alcibiades said:
The point is: At least H6 tried to move the game.
Change is good. Change for this stagnant series would be good, if fundamentals and spirit were preserved too. Just can't trust Ubi and their development team to get the change 'right', as H6 still fell flat.
Irony is I'm not particularly pro change myself. Well, I'm pro change, but not just for the sake of change. Changes should be made because there's something in the game that doesn't work optimally and because one has a reason to believe that the change will remedy that problem. Changes should not be made "just because we need something new".
I could see the direction the developers were heading for with Heroes 6, even if I didn't agree with that direction (because it was not the direction I wanted to go, and because I felt it was the wrong direction for the series in general, something I think timed showed me right in). I think most of the changes in H6, however bad and however poorly implemented they were, were made for a reason.
On the contrary, I couldn't really see that with Heroes 4. Most of the changes made in Heroes 4 simply seemed to be made solely for the intend of changing the game. No more upgrades - why? Inferno and Necropolis one faction - why? New world - why? Sure, there were some good attempts with skill system and hero system, but overall, it seemed like it threw away much more than it gained.
The irony of Heroes 7 is that the developers claimed that they tried to take the game back towards the core of the series, but chose to do that in the overall framework of the world/skill/magic system of Heroes 6, and failed to grasp that the very nature of the world/skill/magic system of Heroes 6 was what made this game so unpopular with Heroes fans in the first place.
For all the above mentioned reasons, I do agree with those that say that the basis for a future installment of the game should be H5:TotE. The first step in the development process should not be some sort of wild brainstorm, but should rather be making a list: What was the 10 biggest problems with H5:TotE. Then they can start develop new ideas with the purpose of fixing those problems, or with the purpose of expanding the game. But ideas should be made with the focus of improvement and expansion, not just change for the sake of change.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 10:01 AM |
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Well, the problem is this: if you have a good game, then you CAN of course ask, is there anything in the game that could be BETTER?
If you do that, and everything works - you shouldn't be able to ask that question again (at least the answer shouldn't be higher resolution).
Which means, this is a quite limited approach.
The approach needed is to ask for a new angle. An example for this would be, say, creature experience (like WOG introduced it). Of course every "new angle" will probably be up to debate, but it's needed - otherwise you have no good reason to make a new game.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted April 01, 2016 10:26 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
The approach needed is to ask for a new angle. An example for this would be, say, creature experience (like WOG introduced it). Of course every "new angle" will probably be up to debate, but it's needed - otherwise you have no good reason to make a new game.
You are right. In addition to addressing the shortcomings of previous games, you need to have a new angle for a new game. But I don't think these points are opposed to one another. You eventually get to a point that in order to improve something you have to make rather big changes or introduce something new. Take caravans for instance. That was a new angle introduced (not a major one, but significant enough). At the same time it was an attempted solution for managing creatures from several towns and dwellings, where you previously would use hero-chaining or abusing town-portal. The creature pool in Heroes 6 was another attempt at solving the same problem, but in my opinion removed too much management altogether, not just the micromanagement aspect of it.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 01, 2016 10:43 AM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 10:44, 01 Apr 2016.
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alcibiades said:
On the contrary, I couldn't really see that with Heroes 4. Most of the changes made in Heroes 4 simply seemed to be made solely for the intend of changing the game.
I am fairly certain those changes are to improve the RPG motives of the game. After all, for that Heroes V NWC was to make, there was a statement the devs would have to make a game with more emphasis on strategy than RPG elements.
"No more upgrades - why?" - who knows. Maybe they wanted to try something else. Either way, it was slightly a surprise, and, in my opinion, not entirely an unwelcome one.
"Inferno and Necropolis one faction - why?" - Could be, due to low budget (since 3DO was nearly at its bankruptcy), they didn't want to scrap either race and simply combined it. I also think it is slightly interesting, if it *really* makes sense, to make it feel original, somewhat. Better than simply reusing *all* units *all* the time in the same faction with the same skills.
"New world - why?" - That's due to the Heroes Chronicles; the last chapter, the Sword of Frost, where Tarnum had failed to retrieve the Sword of Frost and immediately saw the world was close to being destroyed. Don't you think it has a symbolic meaning, since a few years later 3DO (and, thus, NWC) were thrown into oblivion?
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 01, 2016 10:53 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Well, the problem is this: if you have a good game, then you CAN of course ask, is there anything in the game that could be BETTER?
If you do that, and everything works - you shouldn't be able to ask that question again (at least the answer shouldn't be higher resolution).
Which means, this is a quite limited approach.
While that is theoretically true, no Heroes game has come anywhere near that point, not even H5:TotE. So I don't think we have to worry about that.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 11:01 AM |
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Brukernavn said:
The creature pool in Heroes 6 was another attempt at solving the same problem, but in my opinion removed too much management altogether, not just the micromanagement aspect of it.
That's a not too obvious, but good example for a major, well, omission when planning the game and proof that they didn't think things far enough at the time. Creature pool is part of a whole slew of changes which are somewhat linked when you play the game, namely, town conversion and the small case of what happens to the creature pool when a town is lost, but also to town building strategies with regard to the fact that upgrades would give additional creatur growth.
I already wrote about it, but in my opinion this new angle in H6 cried for DAILY growth (not weekly). I mean, I don't need to explain that, you are a veteran yourself and can imagine the effect on the game well. I wrote something about it as well - but in any case, it would have been a perfect fit: not only would daily growth have solved all problems linked with creature pool, conquest and town conversion, it would have put money/resource builds and conquests on the same level as creature builds/flagging (production immediately starting as well as with gold and res), so that the different production rhythm with the added amount of "micro management" would have made up for the amount lost, offering indeed a different angle, but on the same level in that regard.
Daily growth and a simply check-box in the game setup to allow or not allow town conversion would have already made a big difference.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 02:07 PM |
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Galaad said:
Bitula said:
I wouldn’t want anything built on H1-H4, just H5
And on what games do you think H5 was built on? Ok, mostly H3.
Yes H5 was based on H3. It had almost everything H3 had and additional features. Therefore the new Heroes should be based on H5-ToTE, and not H1-H4 because that would only confuse the developer. There is no point in add this from H2, this from H3 etc. That will only confuse the developer, whereas building a game on H5-ToTE is a clear message and realistic. And I am not talking about mods, sure H3 with all mods is much more complex and probably better, but you can’t expect from a developer to play all those mods to get “ideas”.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 01, 2016 02:38 PM |
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That's what we are here for. Wait.. 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 02:40 PM |
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Antalyan said:
frostymuaddib said:
Antalyan said:
Because I do not want to fix to one thing and criticise everything else. Also now is too late to start playing 2D games if you have tried 3D games and have not much good memories about 2D ones.
With all due respect, but you are talking nonsense. People who like H3 are not fixed on one thing and criticise everything else. It is normal that if you used something good, and then you tried using something that is not good, you will criticize the one that is not good.
As for not playing 2D games, man... I feel sorry for you if you are deciding to skip a game just because it is 2D... 
This is not good or not so good but different. At least the RPG elements coming into Heroes.
But I agree this is an endless discussion. I do not find game to be nice in 21st century in 2D, especially if there are similar games in 3D - graphics impression is very important for me.
Fortunately somebody makes some game with graphics I like and gameplay from original Heroes games you speak about...
Ehhh.. what?
Dude, I'm the guy who actually is not totally negative about Heroes 7, but way to sound juvenile. There are tons of modern 2D games which look extremely nice (e.g. UbiArt Rayman etc.) and Heroes 3 had an HD rerelease literally a year ago specifically for people who don't like 800x600 graphics.
I prefer Heroes 5 to Heroes 3 personally, but you have no ground to stand on if you continue arguing the case for Heroes 7 as a "good" game without a baseline reference.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 03:06 PM |
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Heroes 7 is the best heroes game in the series! I cannot wait to see what exciting features are in store for us this year! I love Ubisoft 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 01, 2016 03:22 PM |
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Bitula said:
Yes H5 was based on H3. It had almost everything H3 had and additional features. Therefore the new Heroes should be based on H5-ToTE, and not H1-H4 because that would only confuse the developer. There is no point in add this from H2, this from H3 etc. That will only confuse the developer, whereas building a game on H5-ToTE is a clear message and realistic. And I am not talking about mods, sure H3 with all mods is much more complex and probably better, but you can’t expect from a developer to play all those mods to get “ideas”.
I don't know about that. Since some did ask for certain features to be included. After all, for example, some want H2's graphics (making the game look like an actual fantasy setting).
It's confusing, that I admit. But, I feel that if the devs actually look things from our perspective, much could've been changed. And that's what is missing - any amount of community feedback, any amount of those VIP-s, any amount of community managers won't do much if they look things from the perspective of the community, rather than perspective of marketing managers or somesuch rot.
For just remember what happened to Forge - an outburst (which I doubt was justified, nor was it needed) from the fans that made threats to developers and bam! Devs promised no Forge elements, but made the Conflux town.
I say inexperience with the franchise spawned Heroes VII. After all, it was said Limbic was a developer company for more "simple" games, namely browser ones. In other words, developing a game such as Heroes VII is just a too big task for them. Instead, I think I'd have more trust if they release some spin-off games, like Clash of Heroes, Dark Messiah or Duel of Champions. Simply because they are less likely to fail in development in these "mini-games", rather than making a marketing abomination.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 01, 2016 03:31 PM |
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The_green_drag said:
Heroes 7 is the best heroes game in the series! I cannot wait to see what exciting features are in store for us this year! I love Ubisoft
April Fools, huh?
...predictable.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 03:55 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
The_green_drag said:
Heroes 7 is the best heroes game in the series! I cannot wait to see what exciting features are in store for us this year! I love Ubisoft
April Fools, huh?
...predictable.
Nailed it 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted April 01, 2016 05:33 PM |
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sobaka770 said:
Antalyan said:
frostymuaddib said:
Antalyan said:
Because I do not want to fix to one thing and criticise everything else. Also now is too late to start playing 2D games if you have tried 3D games and have not much good memories about 2D ones.
With all due respect, but you are talking nonsense. People who like H3 are not fixed on one thing and criticise everything else. It is normal that if you used something good, and then you tried using something that is not good, you will criticize the one that is not good.
As for not playing 2D games, man... I feel sorry for you if you are deciding to skip a game just because it is 2D...
This is not good or not so good but different. At least the RPG elements coming into Heroes.
But I agree this is an endless discussion. I do not find game to be nice in 21st century in 2D, especially if there are similar games in 3D - graphics impression is very important for me.
Fortunately somebody makes some game with graphics I like and gameplay from original Heroes games you speak about...
Ehhh.. what?
Dude, I'm the guy who actually is not totally negative about Heroes 7, but way to sound juvenile. There are tons of modern 2D games which look extremely nice (e.g. UbiArt Rayman etc.) and Heroes 3 had an HD rerelease literally a year ago specifically for people who don't like 800x600 graphics.
I prefer Heroes 5 to Heroes 3 personally, but you have no ground to stand on if you continue arguing the case for Heroes 7 as a "good" game without a baseline reference.
I was speakinga about 3D games not about 2D ones.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted April 01, 2016 06:02 PM |
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Bitula said:
Galaad said:
Bitula said:
And I am not talking about mods, sure H3 with all mods is much more complex and probably better, but you can’t expect from a developer to play all those mods to get “ideas”.
mmmm, what?  that MUST be an essential part of their job... Moreover, developers are currently finding out a huge "hindrance": modders are flying over them about 10.000 thousand miles 
Ergo the next Heroes should be developed by great-skilled fans such as Quantomas or Magnomagus, as Verriker stated above.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2016 07:03 PM |
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olorin said:
Bitula said:
Galaad said:
Bitula said:
And I am not talking about mods, sure H3 with all mods is much more complex and probably better, but you can’t expect from a developer to play all those mods to get “ideas”.
mmmm, what? that MUST be an essential part of their job... Moreover, developers are currently finding out a huge "hindrance": modders are flying over them about 10.000 thousand miles
Ergo the next Heroes should be developed by great-skilled fans such as Quantomas or Magnomagus, as Verriker stated above.
Anyone interested in developing H5-TOTE style (3D) fan made game? I am (as a programmer, not as an idea giver ). I mean is there any fan software developer willing to work for free? (I am). Maybe it would make sense to create a forum for this?
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted April 01, 2016 08:24 PM |
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Bitula said:
Anyone interested in developing H5-TOTE style (3D) fan made game? I am (as a programmer, not as an idea giver ). I mean is there any fan software developer willing to work for free? (I am). Maybe it would make sense to create a forum for this?
I'd be your first supporter, no doubt. But do it for selling it in Steam and overcome Ubicraps
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
