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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1604 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 ... 1562 1563 1564 1565 1566 ... 1600 1604 · «PREV / NEXT»
Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted September 24, 2016 12:49 AM

lordgraa said:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game

Maybe they have started making bugs on purpose to see if people spot them?

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 24, 2016 01:08 AM

Brukernavn said:
lordgraa said:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game

Maybe they have started making bugs on purpose to see if people spot them?


But there's so many, it's going to be hard to spot the new ones

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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted September 24, 2016 04:03 AM

Maurice said:
Brukernavn said:
lordgraa said:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game

Maybe they have started making bugs on purpose to see if people spot them?


But there's so many, it's going to be hard to spot the new ones

Actually it's the other way around. It's hard to spot the old ones among so many new "features"...

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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted September 24, 2016 08:26 AM

SoilBurn said:
Maurice said:
Brukernavn said:
lordgraa said:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game

Maybe they have started making bugs on purpose to see if people spot them?


But there's so many, it's going to be hard to spot the new ones

Actually it's the other way around. It's hard to spot the old ones among so many new "features"...


I could not help it but the second I read what you wrote, this game come to my mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqch3SU6gw

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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted September 24, 2016 03:54 PM

Cortes said:

I could not help it but the second I read what you wrote, this game come to my mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqch3SU6gw

The easiest way to tell a German. Ask them if they know Moorhuhn

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted September 24, 2016 07:01 PM

LizardWarrior said:
Did they f***ed up the graphics too? Or is it on low quality for performance?


Scary, looks like 2005.
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Cortes
Cortes


Adventuring Hero
posted September 24, 2016 10:10 PM

SoilBurn said:
Cortes said:

I could not help it but the second I read what you wrote, this game come to my mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqch3SU6gw

The easiest way to tell a German. Ask them if they know Moorhuhn



Who does not?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted September 24, 2016 10:40 PM

Brukernavn said:
lordgraa said:
I am afraid they are sabotaging the game

Maybe they have started making bugs on purpose to see if people spot them?


Most likely they are trying to make people spot the game.
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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 25, 2016 12:07 AM
Edited by Momo at 00:09, 25 Sep 2016.

Ok. This is my last try.


Antalyan said:

Your arguments and opinions about Ashan can be various but you can never be right about it being objectively bad (or worse than the original universe). Nothing can be objetively considered as either bad or good because ratings are never objective.


Whether something truly objective or not actually exists is a matter that gives philosophers' headaches.

But thankfully common sense exists and guides us in the practical needs of life.

If you say you liked Sharknado better than Casablanca, well, that's your preference and nobody has the right to force you to change it. Common sense says, though, that Casablanca is a masterpiece of the movie industry and Sharknado isn't by a long shot. And stating that isn't -logically speaking- exactly as a affirming an uncontestable truth, like for instance "IF A IS TRUE THEN B IS TRUE, IF B IS TRUE THEN C IS TRUE, THEREFORE IF A IS TRUE THEN C MUST ALSO BE TRUE"; but it still is common sense, something one can say with some degree of objectivity.

Ashan is objectively a sloppy creative work pretty much as the gameplay is objectively sloppy and the optimization is objectively sloppy. These aren't crystalline logical sequences, but are statements of common sense, easy to come by for whoever has a grasp in these matters (TBS games, software efficiency, narrative charm, etc). In the end, Ubi's HOMM isn't that terrible, its just that everything in it its mediocre.

SoilBurn said:
stuff about verriker's post


I think you are actually doing it on purpose here. Your post is a total non-sequitur to what he was saying and literally rearrages his words and sentences to fit your ad-hominem rebuttal. Please stop it.

The mods may say it was verriker analogy that was ill-received but honestly, it was kinda hard to receive it the wrong way. You simply took the excuse to avoid an answer.

Face the fact that you are short on reasons for your preference or try to stick to the point. Take your pick.

And by the way, your fierceness is hard to explain really. We all -you too- agree here on the bottom line - Ashan is far from a great fantasy setting. Now to some its crappy and awful, to some -among whom, me- its just meh. But whatever. I am trying to explain to you why it basically misses entirely the point of the old lore, and therefore the spirit of HOMM - it doesn't mean at all that i "worship" that lore or that I deem it "so deep" or deeper than many other, better, fantasy settings, it just means that it misses it. Honestly it doesn't justify the roughness of your attitude towards the issue, and other posters.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt -that it is, truly, just  verriker's style that offsets you and not that you're not cool when it comes to this stuff- and give it a last effort though, going specific into what I mean when I speak of the "OldVerse".

SoilBurn said:
stuff about Dragon Age


While DA (or any blockbuster game or movie, for that matters) isn't certainly above making narrative choices for the sake of attracting more crowd and money, it is one wonderful example of a narrative that has purpose and meaning. Dragon Age tries to tell its own: about freedom, security, prejudice, gender, race. About a lot of things, DA tries to make a stand.

The so-called OldVerse, or original continuity has its own purpose and meaning. It makes its own decisions and has its own moral. It speaks divinity and delivers a nihilistic world in which everything you consider "divine" or "devilish" or "mythical" is just science too advanced for you to comprehend; it speaks of conflict and points out that no matter how advanced a civilization is, war comes after it nonetheless; it speaks of tragedy, of factions  who cannot ever be brought to peace no matter what because they're too fundamentally different from you; it speaks of barbarism and suggests that rebellion, even a just and legitimate rebellion for freedom, comes at the price of violence, ignorance and regress; it speaks of patriotism, faith and honor as the feelings that guide you forward but, essentially, because such feelings (and the societies built around those) are oblivious of the truth and sheltered by a limited comprehension of what happens around them. And so on. The setting of M&M is a fairly pessimistic world, very rooted in the themes that were en-vogue in the '90, with hints from Lovecraft, Conan the Barbarian, post-apocalyptic fantasy, archeo-fantasy and so on.

The old lore also had its unique traits in aesthethic and atmosphere - like humans being friend with griffins (even if that was actually enstabilished later, in H3 I think), wizards having a bizantine architecture with clockwork technology settled in snowy mountains, elves and dwarves being part of the same civilization and having a weird architecture that crossed far-eastern buildings with native-americans and celtic touches, necromances being some weird sort of nation/church culturally inspired to DrFrankenstein, a dust-grey land devoid of any color (barred spectral white and blood red), having a variety of barbaric kingdoms and cultures (ostensibly inspired to a variety of real-existing cultures as well, like mongols, mayans, vikings, arabs, etc) and races (orcs, goblins, lizards, gnolls, humans, etc). It features a nation of mercenary wizards with their pet monsters, and one of fiery demons that are actually aliens, as weird and stupid these things may sound. These are all things that could led you to instantly recognize something setted in Antagarich from something setted in, say, Azeroth or Ardania or Albion or Ivalice or Spira or Lordran or whatever the hell you like.

Now the point is not that I "worship" or "adore" these themes and traits, the point is that they are there. Some of these themes I find outdated, some of this artistic traits leave me unimpressed, some things about Ashan I even like more!

But that just isn't the point in question here. The lore that you call "fragmented" and not "fleshed out" is way more structured, recognizable, meaningful and characterized than Ashan, which doesn't just reinvent HOMM's lore, it strips that lore of everything that gave it purpose and identity.

And this is how and why Ashan, an "okay" fantasy setting in itself if not a good one, becomes insulting and spiteful - when it is forced on us wiping out a much more lively intellectual product that was already there.

And no, this isn't taste al all, it just is what happened.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 25, 2016 11:50 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 11:56, 25 Sep 2016.

For vast majority of HOMM fans the so-called "Might&Magic lore" was hogwash. Remember the outcry that happened when Armageddon's Blade was supposed to add Forge town ? It was precisely for that reason. The fanbase got used to HOMM as a fantasy strategy game full of classic fantastic creatures. The game was designed in the first place as a generic fantasy strategy game, and Might&Magic was tacked on HOMM1 later for marketing reasons. HOMM1, HOMM2, even HOMM3 without AB barely had any trace of Might&Magic. Town names and hero names. And it worked, and it was wildly successful.

Campaigns in HOMM1, HOMM2 were a string of loosely tied scenarios. Single scenario mode was still called "Standard game" in HOMM2, indicating campaign not to mention story was an afterthought. HOMM3 AB felt like it was forcing story down my throat even without Forge. Campaigns became centered not about some kingdoms, but about some angsty anime fellas I don't care about.
HOMM4 was the one guilty for storyline obsession. At least the stories were good.

Very few classic/western mythical creatures were missing from HOMM. Werewolves, krakens, leviathans, dryads, chimeras, not a lot more.

Original HOMM1 had only one faction-based town: Knight (Castle). All other towns were colorful zoos with no pretense of forming a society.
HOMM2 introduced Necropolis, which was the 2nd faction-based town: walking dead. There's really not much difference between a zombie, a lich and a vampire, especially when you reach to folklore. HOMM3 added Inferno, which was hardly about individual creatures, it was another faction/society town.
HOMM5 was determined to push HOMM away from colorful zoo and towards the faction based towns. Dungeon, formerly Warlock, is now all about dark elves + minotaur and 3 reptiles, one mounted by a dark elf too. Sylvan is now an elf town - blade dancer, hunters, shamans are elves,
but overall ratio of creatures is higher than Dungeon. Fortress is thoroughly dwarf infested. Stronghold is almost an orc town, it's full of goblinoids or at least humanoids.

And it went downhill from there. Worst parts of all HOMM games: story obsession of HOMM4, but with poor story. The colorful menagerie of classic HOMM replaced with warhammer-esque faction towns, and number of classic fantasy creatures steadily dropping, to make room for dwarf accountants and dwarf bakers. HOMM5 cutscenes. Big change in music too since HOMM5 - movie-like music to support story instead of town/terrain based music. HOMM5 music, even with classic HOMM motifs, sounds like a generic movie music. Oh-so-serious faction based towns.

------------

HOMM1 was a playful, whimsical fantasy strategy game chock-full of fantastic creatures. No pretense of coherence.

The further away from it, the more faction, character and story obsessession. Away from strategy and towards top-down RPG. I call that degradation. last Heroes games treat themselves too seriously.

When I want a playful and charming fantasy strategy game, I no longer have something to play. Only ancient games like first HOMMs and Fantasy General.

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SoilBurn
SoilBurn


Known Hero
BurnsSoil
posted September 25, 2016 02:41 PM
Edited by SoilBurn at 14:45, 25 Sep 2016.

Momo said:
spiteful rant about stuff that never happened

I won't even touch that with a 10 ft pole. If you have a problem with the fact that I disagree with your views, attacking me is not the way to go about it. Neither is twisting facts so that they fit your purposes.
The only thing that really happened is that verriker made a crude analogy that implied Ashan is slapstick comedy. Regardless, of how he meant it, it was crude, ill-placed and -worded. That's it.

And all those paragraphs you wrote defending the old M&M universe are wasted on me. Why do you need to defend it? I said clearly that I like it as much as the new one. Just because in one comment I said it is fractured and that Ashan is visually fleshed out? OK, you are passionate about your hobby, I understand. But this is grasping at straws in its purest form.
The real problem is that you (and others) are bothered by the fact that some HoMM fans actually like Ashan. Well, I kindly ask that you learn to respect that, exactly like I respect your likes.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 25, 2016 03:10 PM

Quick your cadet is in danger!!!!
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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted September 25, 2016 03:33 PM

SoilBurn said:

The real problem is that you (and others) are bothered by the fact that some HoMM fans actually like Ashan.


No, there is around 30-40% of HC that has no real problem with Ashan and that is not the problem. The problem is, I think, when a member keeps on being personal and does not contribute to anything but creating tensions, because is not the game that is being discussed any longer but the individuals. And that is annoying. That is also, if I got the CoC right, penalty-worthy in the long term.

Oh, and nice post b0rsuk.
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"Corribus is a teddy bear" - Blizzardboy

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imid
imid


Hired Hero
posted September 25, 2016 04:19 PM


Unfortunately, you guys are right. H7 is one of the most idiotic games ever created, so many wrong decisions and bugs so that it is impossible to play it. The team of ubisoft lost completely the credibility and limbic is going to get bankrupted. And yes, the  teletubbies make more tricks than the AI of H7 lol

sad but true….


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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 25, 2016 06:17 PM
Edited by yogi at 18:17, 25 Sep 2016.

Galaad said:

Oh, and nice post b0rsuk.

+1

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olorin
olorin


Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
posted September 25, 2016 07:35 PM

b0rsuk said:


HOMM1 was a playful, whimsical fantasy strategy game chock-full of fantastic creatures. No pretense of coherence.

The further away from it, the more faction, character and story obsessession. Away from strategy and towards top-down RPG. I call that degradation. last Heroes games treat themselves too seriously.

When I want a playful and charming fantasy strategy game, I no longer have something to play. Only ancient games like first HOMMs and Fantasy General.


Damn, nice post! You're absolutely right. From H5 onwards many fans lost direction. A true Heroes game must display a generic fantasy environment that allows you to create your own scenarios. Campaigns? Meh.
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Momo
Momo


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 25, 2016 07:55 PM
Edited by Momo at 19:59, 25 Sep 2016.

b0rsuk said:
stuff


Yeah, I forgot to mention, but you are correct in mentioning it: the old lore didn't take itself seriously as Ashan does and wasn't too interested in being a bible that all players should know. It was also ironic and goofy at times, also another thing en-vogue in the '90.

Incidentally, if you want a fantasy TBS that doesn't take itself seriously at all, try Warlock.

SoilBurn said:
Momo said:
spiteful rant about stuff that never happened



Talk about respect.

SoilBurn said:

The only thing that really happened is that verriker made a crude analogy that implied Ashan is slapstick comedy. Regardless, of how he meant it, it was crude, ill-placed and -worded. That's it.


No, he evidently meant that if you make something in a opposite or quite different spirit than the license you're working in, the fans of said license are going to feel betrayed and be upset. Just like slapstick comedy doesn't represent what DA is about, Ashan doesn't represent what HOMM's lore was about, that was the analogy. That was what he meant and it was quite clear.

SoilBurn said:

And all those paragraphs you wrote defending the old M&M universe are wasted on me. Why do you need to defend it? I said clearly that I like it as much as the new one.


I don't care at all if you like it or not.  That is subjective, a matter of taste. And you keep assuming that I absolutely love it - despite me saying the contrary over and over. Nor I am defending it (from what accusations anyway?). But if you say that it is underdeveloped or uncharaterized or not fleshed out, then we're in the (relatively)objective field of evaluating a narrative work. And I disagree.

SoilBurn said:
OK, you are passionate about your hobby, I understand.


Among all games I play, trust me, HOMM doesn't occupy event the 10% of my free time. And as I said, I played more Ubi's HoMM way more than 3DO's HOMM. But you just don't pay attention to what I say do you?

SoilBurn said:

The real problem is that you (and others) are bothered by the fact that some HoMM fans actually like Ashan.


I do like Ashan, or at least I for sure like it more than the vast majority of HoMM players. I liked HOMM6 more than most players around here, as well. I never expected to play another HOMM that was not settled in Ashan, nor I think that they cannot make good games just because of Ashan. As I said, times, and times, and times, again.

What bothers me is not recognizing the work of the creative team for what it is. A mediocre effort based on -declaredly!- imitating a succesful brand, at the cost of erasing a unique work of lore that already existed, and -more importantly- erasing not one or two, but ALL of its themes, characters, visual and artistic traits, everything. All with a bold smile in their face like they're doing the greatest tale ever told.

There are a lot of things I dislike with the "OldVerse" (once again, I am repeating myself), like the characters, the uncohesiveness, how some factions were visually represented (eg Kreegan) or displayed in the story (eg Deijya) or overlooked (eg AvLee). There are a lot of things I'd have done differently, rebooted, or remade. But the principle at work with the creation of Ashan wasn't to improve the work of the previous creatives, or to better express the spirit of the series; it was to take away everything that was unique and identifiable and replace it with a more conformist, cheap, reassuring setting.

The fact that I can enjoy that setting or that Galaad hates it or that GenryaAkaido loves it are all unrelevant to this.

As a lover of fantasy narrative, I call mediocrity when I see it. And when it is so blatant, yes, it bothers me that people stubbornly refuse to admit it.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 26, 2016 08:16 AM

Momo said:

As a lover of fantasy narrative, I call mediocrity when I see it. And when it is so blatant, yes, it bothers me that people stubbornly refuse to admit it.

You're a lover of fantasy narrative, not the high supreme judge of that. If some people like it, let them be. Did anyone else get in your face for liking pasta with ketchup( random example)?
Taste is taste.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted September 26, 2016 09:17 AM

He is not wrong though. There are things I like that I consider objectively bad. Ashan writing is bad whether one likes it or not
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Being human is a roller coaster ride of emotions during rainstorms and sunshine, sprinkled with moments when you can almost reach the stars.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Supreme Hero
By the power of Vivendi!
posted September 26, 2016 10:32 AM

Elvin said:
He is not wrong though. There are things I like that I consider objectively bad. Ashan writing is bad whether one likes it or not


I would add to that that the way they tell the story is not the best either, imo.

H5 cutscenes were bad.
H6 had those character dialogues (something similar exists in H7 if I'm not wrong) that were not the best.

IMO, the perfect way was implemented in H4: timed events + placed events with just written text.

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