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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 16, 2015 02:43 PM |
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A 4/4/2 line-up system would work very nicely indeed...if those creatures have good abilities. With bland and recycled creature abilities like in H7, no amount of units per faction will bring the replayability we seek.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 16, 2015 03:18 PM |
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jhb said:
You are right, the growth rate would be important here. But I was guessing stacks would still have some difference in overall power, even considering the growth. I think it will be more different than it was in h6, at least. But it's just a guess, of course.
You are completely right that balance will be an incredibly delicate matter in this case. It is very likely that in most cases, the choice of 4 will reduce to a default pick of 3 that is taken every time - we saw that happen in H4, and we saw it in H5 with alternative upgrades, where many upgrades never got any play. Onle way to prevent that is through very distinct creature roles, and even then, player habit may still mean one set gets chosen every time. On the other hand, if this allows people to have "custom" line-ups that they favor, it may still be well worth it, even if one could then argue the gameplay impact is minor.
Storm-Giant said:
A 4/4/2 line-up system would work very nicely indeed...if those creatures have good abilities. With bland and recycled creature abilities like in H7, no amount of units per faction will bring the replayability we seek.
Personally I don't mind *some* recycling of abilities - sure, some should be unique, bot others like "no retaliation" can be used on many creatures. When that's said, the key will be to limit the recycling so that not every faction has one creature with "no retaliation", one creature with "vigilance", etc. because then suddenly the factions end up all playing the same.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 03:27 PM |
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For what it's worth, I don't think that limiting creature dwelling building in town makes sense:
Say you have 4/4/2 structure (which would be cool). Why would you be limited to building 3/3/1? I mean, for what reason would the game decide for you what you are allowed to and what not?
Your main hero has limited slots - but you know that beforehand.
Your economy produces only so much gold and resources, and you have to build stuff and buy stuff - but you know that beforehand: Economy management is part of the game.
Which means you should be allowed to build whatever you feel right. Generally spoken, even if the game doesn't dictate to build only so much, most of the time you will have to limit YOURSELF anyway.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 16, 2015 03:51 PM |
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Down with three tier-system! It is plain bad and unnecessary, just downgrades units! *spits* It wasn and still is a bad idea! Boo! *thumbs down*
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 16, 2015 03:53 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
For what it's worth, I don't think that limiting creature dwelling building in town makes sense:
Say you have 4/4/2 structure (which would be cool). Why would you be limited to building 3/3/1? I mean, for what reason would the game decide for you what you are allowed to and what not?
Your main hero has limited slots - but you know that beforehand.
Your economy produces only so much gold and resources, and you have to build stuff and buy stuff - but you know that beforehand: Economy management is part of the game.
Which means you should be allowed to build whatever you feel right. Generally spoken, even if the game doesn't dictate to build only so much, most of the time you will have to limit YOURSELF anyway.
but... but...
but mah balance!
Totally agree though. It's about management, not power
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted August 16, 2015 04:04 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 16:07, 16 Aug 2015.
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Not being limited in building dwellings would allow the player to field more troops and thus allow multiple armies thus potentially help clearing the map faster however this would also mean that the turns would undoubtedly take longer to complete and that is not something a multiplayer oriented game(ha!) is supposed to be aiming at.
Not to mention that most of the time people would opt to build all the cores before the elite due to the exponensialy rising dwelling cost. Having access to a steady supply of troops faster will always be preferable to having to sprape together resources for a more expensive dwelling with more expensive units. This would lead to games played with barely any champion units which is not something I would prefer.
What I don't understad is why people would be pleased with a 4/4/2 lineup when there are clearly enough units to fill a 5/5/2 roster(limited to 3/3/1 would be my preference). If we didn't have that many then all the lineup votes would not have happened at all.
INFACT what I would propose is to have 2 thematically different builds for each faction. A dungeon town could support an elf dominated as well as a minotaur dominated town-build, campaign only ofc, no need to limit ourselves in singleplayer. A town with minotaur sorcerers being more beast themed could also be a much needed nod to the original warlock towns of the NWC era. Same with necropolis, divided along the lines of the Namtaru venom junkies and the classic bloodsucker/piles of ones roster. Such arrangements could also be made for most classic towns except maybe Haven but finding arbitrary lines to devide ourselves by is an inherent human quality so I'm sure a satisfactory conflict can be easily made up to allow this.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 04:28 PM |
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@JollyJoker and fuChris
I gotta ask, did you guys even play the demo beta? This game has been made so easy that you never have to worry about resources, you don't even really need mines for that matter(you can build the town, by just collecting stuff). Unless the prices get higher you will always end up with tens of thousands of extra gold after building each turn and buying all the creatures. I mean if you thought h6 gave players easy time, when you play h7 the h6 system will feel like an extreme difficulty. That's just how cheap it was to build and recruit in h7(only external elemental place felt expensive for the short moment in the week 1 or week 2.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted August 16, 2015 04:35 PM |
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TD said:
@JollyJoker and fuChris
I gotta ask, did you guys even play the demo beta? This game has been made so easy that you never have to worry about resources, you don't even really need mines for that matter(you can build the town, by just collecting stuff). Unless the prices get higher you will always end up with tens of thousands of extra gold after building each turn and buying all the creatures. I mean if you thought h6 gave players easy time, when you play h7 the h6 system will feel like an extreme difficulty. That's just how cheap it was to build and recruit in h7(only external elemental place felt expensive for the short moment in the week 1 or week 2.
That is just bad game/map design and does not invalidate the points made whatsoever.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 04:53 PM |
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Apart from the fact that fuChris is wrong, I was just hypothetically speaking.
With Heroes being limited to 7 creatures, your aim is always, to be at the apex of power when you face opponent. On a small map, sure you'd go for "as much as fast as possible", but on a medium map that wouldn't be the best course of action - of course depending on waht economy allows.
Anyway, just hypothetically spoken.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted August 16, 2015 05:01 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Apart from the fact that fuChris is wrong, I was just hypothetically speaking.
With Heroes being limited to 7 creatures, your aim is always, to be at the apex of power when you face opponent. On a small map, sure you'd go for "as much as fast as possible", but on a medium map that wouldn't be the best course of action - of course depending on waht economy allows.
Anyway, just hypothetically spoken.
Correction, I would have been wrong if we were talking about a 7-tier system but ever since H6 and it's new 3-tier approach, an armybuild excluding both champion AND elite units is perfectly pausible even on medium maps. L and Xl maps are ofc a different matter.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 05:11 PM |
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A medium map with Cores only? Extremely bad economy management. Or bad map design. Or bad game balancing.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted August 16, 2015 05:43 PM |
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Or a unified army approach where you can integrate troops immediately from freshly captured towns clearing the map with only 3-5 powerstacks. It would be basically the same as some ?pro? strategies from h3 except that the powerstacks are not wyverns and angels but regular core creatures. The fact that the difference in power between tiers has been reduced(so much so that champion units in H6 were quite pathetic sometimes) combined with townconversion made this viable. Thankfully now that we won't have townconversion this will change.
Either way the game will be balanced, whether in favour of core or elite/champion creatures, allowing a free to build approach would still exclude many of the creatures from an ideal town buld in favour of those that allow the easiest creeping of the map, leaving many units unused which would truly be a waste of gamedevelopment resources.
Building prerequisites allow for certain town builds while still providing alternative builds without the almost certain exclusion of units during play. No development resources would thus be wasted since a certain 7 creature lineup would still be ideal for all builds.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 16, 2015 05:53 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
For what it's worth, I don't think that limiting creature dwelling building in town makes sense:
Say you have 4/4/2 structure (which would be cool). Why would you be limited to building 3/3/1? I mean, for what reason would the game decide for you what you are allowed to and what not?
Your main hero has limited slots - but you know that beforehand.
Your economy produces only so much gold and resources, and you have to build stuff and buy stuff - but you know that beforehand: Economy management is part of the game.
Which means you should be allowed to build whatever you feel right. Generally spoken, even if the game doesn't dictate to build only so much, most of the time you will have to limit YOURSELF anyway.
My main concern with this would be a snow-ball situation, once a player gets the upper hand, he'll be able to afford more creatures than just what supplies one army, and then would grow even stronger, etc. To some extent, I think the old 7-creature rule has a nice balancing effect because when default is that you buy all creatures, then there's not much room for growing out of control. I know you don't share this view, and that economic management is one of yout pet pieves, but I must admit I'm not really with you on that boat.
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What will happen now?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 16, 2015 06:02 PM |
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Maybe off-topic, but since many people view this thread, here. It is about a discount sale on GoG - Heroes included!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 06:14 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
For what it's worth, I don't think that limiting creature dwelling building in town makes sense:
Say you have 4/4/2 structure (which would be cool). Why would you be limited to building 3/3/1? I mean, for what reason would the game decide for you what you are allowed to and what not?
Your main hero has limited slots - but you know that beforehand.
Your economy produces only so much gold and resources, and you have to build stuff and buy stuff - but you know that beforehand: Economy management is part of the game.
Which means you should be allowed to build whatever you feel right. Generally spoken, even if the game doesn't dictate to build only so much, most of the time you will have to limit YOURSELF anyway.
Very much this, although it's like the 3rd time we discuss this. As a general rule of thumb, the more freedom you have, the better. Arbitrary restrictions are a necessary evil if a game lacks balance or can't be steered in the appropriate direction, but this is not the case here. A player's economy and strategical choice are much more flexible factors that make for a better gameplay experience. As such, I'm not in favor of the Heroes 4 system where buildings exclude one another. Rather, let everything be buildable, with the player deciding what to build and how much to build.
Also, since we're talking about line-ups. In would prefer 4 Tiers instead of 3 and a 4-3-2-1 distribution instead of 4-4-2.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 16, 2015 06:17 PM |
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Stevie said:
A player's economy and strategical choice are much more flexible factors that make for a better gameplay experience. As such, I'm not in favor of the Heroes 4 system where buildings exclude one another. Rather, let everything be buildable, with the player deciding what to build and how much to build.
Well, I doubt that's for better. It makes the town a bit more unique from one another, even if it is from the same faction. Besides, it can also be counted as a strategic choice, whether you want to recruit more defensive or more offensive creatures, so to speak.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 16, 2015 07:04 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:04, 16 Aug 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
For what it's worth, I don't think that limiting creature dwelling building in town makes sense:
Say you have 4/4/2 structure (which would be cool). Why would you be limited to building 3/3/1? I mean, for what reason would the game decide for you what you are allowed to and what not?
Your main hero has limited slots - but you know that beforehand.
Your economy produces only so much gold and resources, and you have to build stuff and buy stuff - but you know that beforehand: Economy management is part of the game.
Which means you should be allowed to build whatever you feel right. Generally spoken, even if the game doesn't dictate to build only so much, most of the time you will have to limit YOURSELF anyway.
I see what you're trying to say, but aren't you disregarding a gravitational effect? With that I mean that if you were able to build 4-4-2 in any given town, with restricted stack slots on the Hero (7 stack at the moment), your economy will determine which stacks you're going to field? If resources are scarce, you're likely sticking with Cores, but as you acquire more and you can invest more in your troops than in town building, you are bound to gravitate to 2 Champions, 4 Elites and 1 Core in your army.
The only limiting factor is that during the build-up, you're relying on the Cores, so those stacks will grow before you get your Elites or even your Champion buildings up. Still, with inevitable losses through your battles, the Core stacks will dwindle over time (an effect that's stronger for them than for Elites and Champions, since they have overall lower hitpoints than those), so eventually you will get a moment where you discard a Core stack in favor of an Elite or Champion stack.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 07:56 PM |
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fuChris said:
Or a unified army approach where you can integrate troops immediately from freshly captured towns clearing the map with only 3-5 powerstacks.
You can do that no matter what, and provided there are towns to take, with or without limitations.
Look, it's fairly easy, if you are limited in your building option, you can't go wrong. Everyone get's the same army structure.
If not - you could forego CORES, and go for Elites, provided you get the res.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 16, 2015 08:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:11, 16 Aug 2015.
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Maurice said:
you are bound to gravitate to 2 Champions, 4 Elites and 1 Core in your army.
so eventually you will get a moment where you discard a Core stack in favor of an Elite or Champion stack.
That's just the natural way of things. No one complained about it when the same effect could be observed in any Heroes game where a player owned 2 Towns of different factions, proceeding to recruit the top creatures and leaving behind the weaker ones. But you know where people complained? When Heroes 6 tried to "fix" this with its town conversion system, and we all know how well that went.
But just to throw in an idea for people who are very uncomfortable in trying to fit 10 creatures on one hero: in my ideal game, heroes would start with 5 base creature slots and would have the possibility of expanding that with an extra 2 on the main army and 3 more as reserves (through skills).
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 16, 2015 08:11 PM |
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Would towns have extra troop slots?
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
