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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2015 11:06 PM |
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JJ summed it up quite well how the game feels/is to me also. It would need major changes as I've said before for it to become good, fun and interesting game for me.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 08, 2015 11:13 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Brukernavn said:
That is true, but I somehow doubt it will happen. Because Ashan.
In Ashan's case, lore isn't a problem. It can be changed in a matter of minutes. What is a true problem, though, is mindset of people behind it. For them lore is a monolith, a grandiose and sacred statue that needs to remain untouched. Thankfully, we can see first flashes of thinking about changing the monolith into something more practical and I can only wish for goingmoreand more into that direction. 
Realistically speaking: Can it, though? Ever since the production of Heroes 6, I'm seeing an extremely worrisome trend of keeping things as they are for the sake of consistency. They have established their lore (which, as we all know, can be obnoxiously restrictive) and they are comitted to stick to it and not change it.
Take the Magic Schools as an example. H6 introduced the 7 Magic Schools we all know (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime), what did the following M&M games did?
- Duel of Champions: 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
- Might & Magic X: Legacy: 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
- Heroes VII? 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
In their quest to establish a consistent World where all games share the same rules for the sake of consistency alone, they are holding back the game in some areas. Saying that convincing them to change their minds in regards to the Magic System for future Heroes games would be an uphill battle is a Hell of an understatement, because I don't see any willingness for a change. And that's sad.
And for the record, I'm the first to say that it is possible to come up with a Magic System with 4-5 Magic Schools that respects the lore. I just don't see it happening for as long as the so called "Team Erwin" stays in charge.
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The_green_drag 
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2015 11:25 PM |
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TD said:
JJ summed it up quite well how the game feels/is to me also. It would need major changes as I've said before for it to become good, fun and interesting game for me.
Creature pools can still save the game and liven it up. I'm so sick of the academy line up and I haven't even had a full game with them yet. And there are too many heavy ground factions, haven/sylvan/dungeon. Some Griffins Pegasus and manticores are sorely needed. with more than 5 movement
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted October 08, 2015 11:28 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Pawek_13 said:
Brukernavn said:
That is true, but I somehow doubt it will happen. Because Ashan.
In Ashan's case, lore isn't a problem. It can be changed in a matter of minutes. What is a true problem, though, is mindset of people behind it. For them lore is a monolith, a grandiose and sacred statue that needs to remain untouched. Thankfully, we can see first flashes of thinking about changing the monolith into something more practical and I can only wish for goingmoreand more into that direction.
Realistically speaking: Can it, though? Ever since the production of Heroes 6, I'm seeing an extremely worrisome trend of keeping things as they are for the sake of consistency. They have established their lore (which, as we all know, can be obnoxiously restrictive) and they are comitted to stick to it and not change it.
Take the Magic Schools as an example. H6 introduced the 7 Magic Schools we all know (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime), what did the following M&M games did?
- Duel of Champions: 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
- Might & Magic X: Legacy: 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
- Heroes VII? 7 Magic Schools (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Light, Dark, Prime).
In their quest to establish a consistent World where all games share the same rules for the sake of consistency alone, they are holding back the game in some areas. Saying that convincing them to change their minds in regards to the Magic System for future Heroes games would be an uphill battle is a Hell of an understatement, because I don't see any willingness for a change. And that's sad.
And for the record, I'm the first to say that it is possible to come up with a Magic System with 4-5 Magic Schools that respects the lore. I just don't see it happening for as long as the so called "Team Erwin" stays in charge.
There's always a nuclear option to make a game after the events of the Dark Messiah and totally reshape the lore. If Ashan is to change, then this would be the best point at which the team can write whatever they want. So, yes, it's possible.
It's also possible to make the crazy Sandro idea work, where Ashan Dragons will not be primordial, they will be fakes, and Ashan is just another planet in the universe and we can all go to Axeoth now. 
I agree that since Ashan has existed for more than a decade now and a lot of work was put into its lore, there's obvious resistance to change. Personally, I just want the story to continue, I don't like campaigns set in the past, they never feel substantial since we know from Heroes 5 what happens afterwards. What's the point of Duke Ivan then?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2015 01:16 AM |
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They should never have piled them all up and enforce them so strictly through the 7 Dragon Gods - one for each of the elements. I've said it before, but the religious aspects of Ashan should have been manifested through the Light and Dark Magic skills. The four classical elements should have had their own, religious-neutral position in the Magic spectrum. That way, you can set the two sets apart and play with them in different ways, structure them differently. Now they're all pretty much the same, one skill hardly distinguishable from the other.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 06:36 AM |
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Why are the 7 magic schools bad again? Because they have less spells?
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Other than the mission 2 bug i think the Necro campaign is pretty awesome. Its been a while since we played as an evil necromancer, much less one who actually had long term success. Glad to see Charna in the spotlight too, even if she is probably gonna die too (i havent finished it)
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astropuf
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 09, 2015 07:13 AM |
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Hi guys!
Ubisoft is holding an online Might and Magic 7 LAN in my country to promote it. I've played HOMM3 and HOMM4 a lot, but eventually moved to other games with the release of HOMM5.
Could you guys please make me a list with basic feature that changed (most important) and maybe tell me what the best race is on your opinion? You would be greatly helpful for me as I don't think the other participants from my university are going to be prepared.
Thanks in advance!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 08:00 AM |
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My opinion on this is, that the lore can be what it is, it should always be possible to design a captivating game around it - that's actually your task as a developer when you start.
It's not that different from having to write a script for the next season of a TV show after a particularly mind-blowing cliff-hanger: you wouldn't sit there complaining about "the lore" either. Instead you need to be creative which is what this is all about.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted October 09, 2015 09:14 AM |
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Maurice said:
I've said it before, but the religious aspects of Ashan should have been manifested through the Light and Dark Magic skills. The four classical elements should have had their own, religious-neutral position in the Magic spectrum. That way, you can set the two sets apart and play with them in different ways, structure them differently. Now they're all pretty much the same, one skill hardly distinguishable from the other.
Even then wouldn't there still be a shortage of spells per school?
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 09:47 AM |
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The_green_drag said:
Completely agree with JJ
It's more a chore to play when you know that building up a town takes so much time
And to make matters worse every time you start a game your town has 0 buildings already made...
Wow, this is cool, one major problem I had with H5 is that creatures were available too soon, like just in one week I could get tier 6 creatures. Also towns had prebuilt buildings. I don't want this, I would like to build everything from 0. Maybe I should really try this game, lol.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 09:54 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Maurice said:
I've said it before, but the religious aspects of Ashan should have been manifested through the Light and Dark Magic skills. The four classical elements should have had their own, religious-neutral position in the Magic spectrum. That way, you can set the two sets apart and play with them in different ways, structure them differently. Now they're all pretty much the same, one skill hardly distinguishable from the other.
Even then wouldn't there still be a shortage of spells per school?
That's one of the shortcomings of the actual way they did it. 8 spells per school are not enough considering that the quality of a cast spell depends on skills and abilities picked for them. Realistically, you will have at most 2 magic skills which limits the spells you can cast really proficiently to at most a dozen, which is all the more dull, since you basically know from the getgo which 16 spells your hero will get their collection from, the spells that count.
Imo, that's not a good design.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2015 09:56 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Even then wouldn't there still be a shortage of spells per school?
That really depends. I realise my post above is rather short, but I did go into more detail on this subject before. Check this post and scroll down to the "Spell System" header there.
By virtue of splitting the skills in two sets, you create room for additional spells. Your Mage Guilds won't be as overcrowded across 7 different schools, so artificial constructions like selecting a preferred school aren't necessary either.
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 10:27 AM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Why are the 7 magic schools bad again? Because they have less spells?
Yeah I would think that the more schools the better and 7 is more than 4 (H5). This is the first time I read community complaining about something being more rather than less.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 09, 2015 10:55 AM |
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Quote:
Wow, this is cool, one major problem I had with H5 is that creatures were available too soon, like just in one week I could get tier 6 creatures. Also towns had prebuilt buildings.
The game has a difficulty setting you know? also if towns were not touched by the mapmaker they only had a tavern.
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2015 11:01 AM |
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bitula said:
Yeah I would think that the more schools the better and 7 is more than 4 (H5). This is the first time I read community complaining about something being more rather than less.
Sometimes "more" can be "too much" and dilute the pool too much.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted October 09, 2015 11:10 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 11:10, 09 Oct 2015.
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magnomagus said:
The game has a difficulty setting you know? also if towns were not touched by the mapmaker they only had a tavern.
So taverns were set by default? Oh, it's good to know... I feel so dumb right now.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 09, 2015 11:18 AM |
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Maurice said:
bitula said:
Yeah I would think that the more schools the better and 7 is more than 4 (H5). This is the first time I read community complaining about something being more rather than less.
Sometimes "more" can be "too much" and dilute the pool too much.
Well I'd be fine with 7 spell schools if there were more factions, at least 4 more (in addition to 6 we already have).
For the spell skills affect only 8+ spells. H5, H4 and H3 had many more (over 12, by spell school).
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 11:24 AM |
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magnomagus said:
Quote:
Wow, this is cool, one major problem I had with H5 is that creatures were available too soon, like just in one week I could get tier 6 creatures. Also towns had prebuilt buildings.
The game has a difficulty setting you know? also if towns were not touched by the mapmaker they only had a tavern.
As far as I remember in H5 even pushing all difficulties to hardest I could reach tier 7 building on week 3. And tier 6 on week 2. And yes I didn’t like this default tavern, because let me decide if I want to hire a Hero or build something else first, like a tier 1 building. But this was not my point anyway, it was that how can someone find H7 boring because buildings cannot be rushed. From my point of view the opposite would have been boring.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted October 09, 2015 11:33 AM |
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bitula said:
As far as I remember in H5 even pushing all difficulties to hardest I could reach tier 7 building on week 3. And tier 6 on week 2. And yes I didn’t like this default tavern, because let me decide if I want to hire a Hero or build something else first, like a tier 1 building. But this was not my point anyway, it was that how can someone find H7 boring because buildings cannot be rushed. From my point of view the opposite would have been boring.
Trust me, professional players do have to rush through recruitment buildings. It is a part of the strategy, whether playing against AI, and certainly in multiplayer.
An alternative would be just to raise the resource costs.
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bitula
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2015 11:34 AM |
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Maurice said:
bitula said:
Yeah I would think that the more schools the better and 7 is more than 4 (H5). This is the first time I read community complaining about something being more rather than less.
Sometimes "more" can be "too much" and dilute the pool too much.
That the spells, spell skills etc. themselves are not distinct enough is another problem, I just wanted to point out that the more is potentially always better then less, so this cannot be a major complaint. But reading the forum it is.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
