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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1635 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 ... 1400 1600 1635 · «PREV / NEXT»
ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 10:57 AM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:58, 24 Mar 2016.

Articun said:
TBH i haven't had the time to enter so deep into the game mechanics yet. What i said, are just ideas i have while following the comments here. I agree that warcries are like spells for might heroes and so, yeah they need to have some impact on how they are cast. For example, a warcry that increases the attack and luck of all units or of one unit is like inner fire. But the warcry is free. I don't see that as fair.

I don't know how the stats affect different units, maybe someone here can enlighten us more on that, because it interests me.

Finally, the lack of spellcasting units is a great loss, because this is how might heroes had a chance at casting some spells in previous games.

The warcry lasts only one round and it s a fixed number. A small but noticable boost. And you have to recast the same warcry for the desired effect.
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Articun
Articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted March 24, 2016 11:02 AM

Isn't this the same with some magic though? And aren't warcries affecting the whole of the army as well? And don;t they have additional effects also? The balance between the two is thin. But i do think there should be some cost to casting them.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 11:08 AM

Articun said:
Isn't this the same with some magic though? And aren't warcries affecting the whole of the army as well? And don;t they have additional effects also? The balance between the two is thin. But i do think there should be some cost to casting them.
magic costs, is more powerful and gets more powerful,and it lasts. Also depending your magic school magic can have additional effects. The might hero dorsn't have to bother with doffere t warcry schools and can spend points on other stuff like destiny,warfare,offense,defense etc. It seems pretty balanced.
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 11:08 AM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:09, 24 Mar 2016.

Articun said:
Isn't this the same with some magic though? And aren't warcries affecting the whole of the army as well? And don;t they have additional effects also? The balance between the two is thin. But i do think there should be some cost to casting them.
magic costs, is more powerful and gets more powerful,and it lasts. Also depending your magic school magic can have additional effects. The might hero doesn't have to bother with different warcry schools and can spend points on other stuff like destiny,warfare,offense,defense etc. It seems pretty balanced.
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 11:20 AM

I think is better for might heroes to pick a magic school because the effects are much stronger and what to do with those magic artifacts and buildings I visited?!

ChrisD1 agree?
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 11:35 AM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:36, 24 Mar 2016.

natalka said:
I think is better for might heroes to pick a magic school because the effects are much stronger and what to do with those magic artifacts and buildings I visited?!

ChrisD1 agree?

No one said the might hero can't pick a magic school.who said that? Might hero can pick a magic school.But at the cost of other skills,and the cost of mana.  Also his/her magic stat would provide enough spellpower to have a slightly better boost,or the same,with a warcry,but without the added effect,but it will last. I still fail to see how warcries are the end of this world as we know it.
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 11:47 AM
Edited by natalka at 11:51, 24 Mar 2016.

ChrisD1 said:

Might hero can pick a magic school.But at the cost of other skills,and the cost of mana



Warcries also cost skill points which leads me to..

What is the point to spend precious skill points in a skill tree that is rather weak?
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 24, 2016 11:52 AM
Edited by Stevie at 11:57, 24 Mar 2016.

Warcries are just useless copy-paste of spells but without the prerequisites of learning from a guild, spellpower and knowledge. It's basically a magic school for might, which is a loss to traditional boundaries between might and magic. In other words, a perversion.

Might heroes already benefit enormously from passive skills so they start with an advantage against magic heroes who have to catch up in terms of spells. Say, a might hero has +20 attack throughout the entire combat while a magic hero would even the odds by casting a spell, which relies on spellpower, knowledge but also availability of that spell. More importantly, the magic hero would have to waste a turn too, whereas the might hero would use the same turn to do something else. The advantage of magic over might is that with each passing turn and because of higher spellpower and knowledge, the bonuses from magic would reduce the gap in power until it would eventually overcome it.

But with warcries? No problem, just cast it because it doesn't depend on spellpower or mana. It's the ultimate no-brainer. It also makes the alternative of getting an authentic magic school a bad choice. Do you understand now?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 24, 2016 11:57 AM

ChrisD1 said:
It s like i didn't post a thing..
Stamina to might heroes? So they can be more like magic ones? You will essentially cast different spells..
Warcries are hindered enough for the fact that they are cost free. It s middle ground. Can u not exaggerate? It s getting silly.

Warcries may be balance in H7, I don't have any grounds for claiming otherwise. But I'm not sure that's my point. Question is: Why do we even need Warcries? In my opinion, if you want something for might heroes "to do", to compensate for them not being as good in spells as magic heroes, then the direct attack would be a much more obvious place to start because it fits the might theme much better than some pseudo-magic system.

As for my sugestion of a Stamina attribute, the Stamina should not only be a feature for might heroes, it should be a general feature, and its primary purpose should be limiting the magic hero in his use of direct attacks, similarly to how the mana pool limits the might hero much more than it limits the magic hero, all things being equal, because might heroes generally have lower knowledge.

The added value of a Stamina attribute would be that it could fix some of the glaring issues with Hero direct attack, for instance how you could take out very large but slow stacks alone with infinite hero direct attacks and one fast unit, which was a huge game-design flaw.
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What will happen now?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 24, 2016 12:08 PM

natalka said:
What is the point to spend precious skill points in a skill tree that is rather weak?


None. Skills distribution and acquisition also needs rethinking.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 12:46 PM

Do u know what are the chances to scrap the whole Warcries tree because of everything said above?

Less than 0 % unfortunatelly..
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 12:54 PM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 14:12, 24 Mar 2016.

natalka said:


Warcries also cost skill points which leads me to..

What is the point to spend precious skill points in a skill tree that is rather weak?

We are talking about warcries aside the skill tree. As for the skilltree is another discussion. We are talking about smth else here
@stevie
For f's sake get over it,they mutilated our game i agree,let it go and try to enjoy it! Enough with your drama! Warcries, a perversion... Gee!!! I really wonder how would you act after a breakup!!

@alcibiades
As for the stamina i will say again that this is going needlessly too far and you are falling into the trap of overthinking. It wouldn't be a bad feature but its absence is not killing anyone.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 24, 2016 01:05 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:05, 24 Mar 2016.

I'm definitely not the one overreacting here. I'm more or less indifferent about H7 at the moment. However, I do try to find eventual mistakes and think of fixes or alternatives. It's an interesting process to me and it adds to knowledge of how Heroes should be or how it could at least work.

natalka said:
Do u know what are the chances to scrap the whole Warcries tree because of everything said above?

Less than 0 % unfortunatelly..


Well, I think that's partially understandable from a development point of view. It's a symptom anyway, solving the real issue would be more advisable, but that would require core features rewritten from scratch. You'd be better off making a new game at that point.
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The Young Traveler

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 01:06 PM

the skill tree is weak because warcries are useless.

When planning skill picking you have room for one skill - either invest in some magic school or warcries. Which will you choose?
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 24, 2016 01:19 PM
Edited by Stevie at 13:28, 24 Mar 2016.

A magic school, always.

If warcries were somehow a safer but less rewarding choice compared to a magic school's more demanding prerequisites (in form of stats like spellpower and knowledge plus spell availability in the magic guild) but also more rewarding potential, you'd understand why someone would opt for either one depending on playstyle. But as it stands, the magic skills give you sufficient power to your spells to make them always more useful than warcries. Also, Arcane Knowledge and preferred magic school in the guild remove the worries of spell acquisition. That's how it looks to me.
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The Young Traveler

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 24, 2016 01:46 PM
Edited by Maurice at 13:49, 24 Mar 2016.

I've written about it before, but I can't find the post as quick.

The way I would like to see them develop Might Heroes is by implementing War skills. Similar to Magic spells, a Might Hero has to learn specific Battle Tactics from a War School of sorts.

Unlike spells, Battle Tactics can be used without a resource cost, so essentially like War Cries. In fact, War Cries can be considered a sub-skill among the War skills. Other War skills include Artillery, Ranged Combat, Siegecraft, Offense, Defense, etc ... The power of a Battle Tactic depends on the Attack and/or Defense skill of the Might Hero.

The key aspect is that in this system, the passive bonus to Attack and Defense is gone. Instead, these boosts come from the usage of the various Battle Tactics learned from War Schools.

The key element that's important is that the various Battle Tactics work in unison. Depending on their follow-up order, they reinforce eachother.

For instance, in Ranged Combat you have a Battle Tactic called "Pin down". "Pin down" does slightly less damage, but unit that gets "pinned down" has its movement reduced. On the next turn, another Battle Tactic called "Charge!" will allow a unit to charge into battle, dealing extra damage to the enemy. A unit that's "pinned down" can't move as much and therefore suffers a bigger impact on the charge, besides a reduction in effective defense because unit coherence has been reduced.

In reverse, a unit that has been Charged isn't effectively defending against ranged attacks, so when they subsequently get "Pinned down", it can't reform as easily and the defense reduction remains reduced as long as it's pinned down.

Or a Battle Tactic called "Sapper" prepares an enemy defense point to be more vulnerable. A follow-up Battle Tactic called "Focus Fire" with a catapult will deal extra damage to the targeted wall section due to the Sapper effect present. Or a unit may be given the command "Battering Ram", which allows it to damage wall sections.

The number of possible Battle Tactics - and especially the way they combine to reinforce one another - are only limited by creativity.

Like Might Heroes can take on Magic Skills, so too should Magic Heroes be allowed to take on these Might Skills. However, since these Might Skills depend on Attack and Defense of the Hero, in a Magic Hero they are far less effective. This is pretty similar to Spellpower for Might Heroes in previous installments of the game series.
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 02:24 PM

natalka said:
the skill tree is weak because warcries are useless.

When planning skill picking you have room for one skill - either invest in some magic school or warcries. Which will you choose?

one minute we are debating about warcries being op and free and now we are saying that warcries are useless.. gurl....
the way i see it @stevie a might hero won't level up his magic at every level leaving him/her so why would he pick magic over might?? his magic i suspect, will get good enough so some spells will surpass the effects of warcries but isn't it a waste when he/she can focus on other abilities as he/she levels up? i mean why bother acquiring arcane knowledge to learn high level spells when your magic won't get as good as a mage's? so you can be a low level magic hero with high attack? why not invest in some other skills like offense, defense, destiny, warfare(if it was % per level), or even warcries? they are free after all and the bigger your army the bigger the bonus. lets not forget economy, diplomacy and exploration.
come on we are overthinking about warcries and it's getting boring already. the game has lots of flaws but not there
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 02:40 PM

I never said warcries are OP and I think you misunderstood here.

ChrisD1 said:
i mean why bother acquiring arcane knowledge to learn high level spells when your magic won't get as good as a mage's? so you can be a low level magic hero with high attack? why not invest in some other skills like offense, defense, destiny, warfare(if it was % per level), or even warcries?



Of course a might hero will spend the points in above categories but instaed of warcries he/she should pick a magic school. There are a lot of spells that don`t depend on Magic - shadow cloak, liquid membrane, time control, time stasis, cyclone(for the tactics effect).

There are also two spells that even though a mage will cast them better the attack/defence differences offset the spells in favour of the might hero. These are lightning reflexes and shadow image. The second attack may be with -15 attack but the might hero is already loaded with enough attack or who wants to make a copy of unit that barely scratches the might hero` army.

Even those that depend on Magic will be the better choice eventually, surpassing the effects of the warcries as you already said.

So in the end a might hero can have a variety of utility spells which will help in many different scenarios whereas with the warcries it is very predictable.
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted March 24, 2016 02:45 PM

natalka said:


Of course a might hero will spend the points in above categories but instaed of warcries he/she should pick a magic school. There are a lot of spells that don`t depend on Magic - shadow cloak, liquid membrane, time control, time stasis, cyclone(for the tactics effect).

There are also two spells that even though a mage will cast them better the attack/defence differences offset the spells in favour of the might hero. These are lightning reflexes and shadow image. The second attack may be with -15 attack but the might hero is already loaded with enough attack or who wants to make a copy of unit that barely scratches the might hero` army.

Even those that depend on Magic will be the better choice eventually, surpassing the effects of the warcries as you already said.

So in the end a might hero can have a variety of utility spells which will help in many different scenarios whereas with the warcries it is very predictable.


you seem to forget that a might hero has to invest to both spirit and magic to cast those spells the same way he/she could spam warcries. and that doesn't happen because (i hope) when a might hero levels up his defense and might get favored instead of spirit and magic.
if someone has noticed please share. when a might hero levels up does he get more might and defense than a magic hero?and does the magic hero gets his/her magic and spirit higher than the might hero's?
I mean that almost solves everything.
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted March 24, 2016 02:48 PM
Edited by natalka at 14:54, 24 Mar 2016.

ChrisD1, 35% of all stat points go to either magic or spirit. This is true for all might heroes. Did you know that?

All maps have locations visits for spirit/magic and on top of that magic artifacts also exist.

EDIT: actually the % are as follows:
academy, sylvan, necropolis - 40 %
haven, dungeon - 35%
orcs - 30%
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