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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1635 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 ... 1400 1600 1635 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 29, 2016 12:31 PM

Ah, well I agree with you.
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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted March 29, 2016 05:00 PM

Could you please move this discussion into another thread? I do not think this is connected to H7...

Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 29, 2016 05:27 PM

On the contrary, it probably means ubi should listen and keep notes
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Datapack
Datapack


Famous Hero
posted March 29, 2016 05:41 PM

Antalyan said:

Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.


They don't listen either way so you have nothing to worry about.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 29, 2016 05:47 PM

Antalyan said:
Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.


1) you confuse people liking H3 with people liking 2D. The fact H3 is 2D is probably the 27 th reason I -and probably most others- prefer it.

2) For a strategy game is very smart to wait ~2 minutes -charging graphics- between reloads or starting game, yeah 3D rocks.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted March 29, 2016 06:04 PM

Salamandre said:
Antalyan said:
Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.


1) you confuse people liking H3 with people liking 2D. The fact H3 is 2D is probably the 27 th reason I -and probably most others- prefer it.

2) For a strategy game is very smart to wait ~2 minutes -charging graphics- between reloads or starting game, yeah 3D rocks.


I think nothing like H3.2 will certainly happen. For many people H3 reached its top and it's nearly impossible to make a better Heroes game for you/them. Ubi Heroes ARE different. I like it for example but I can understand many others do not.  

As about the waiting, it is the question of optimalization.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2016 06:15 PM

Quote:
Ubi Heroes ARE different. I like it for example but I can understand many others do not.

Because they are CRAP!

Quote:
For many people H3 reached its top and it's nearly impossible to make a better Heroes game for you/them.

And this 'top' should be the obvious solid basis to look into for the future. Imagine evolving from there, a true continuation of Heroes...

But Ubidon't. Ubi scraps entire work from NWC and replaces it with lame WH/WoW copycat Ubi decides the game should be another game and its name be used for commercial profit Ubi tries to corrupt playerbase into liking their frankenstein Ubi doesn't even deliver functional product
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted March 29, 2016 06:20 PM

Antalyan said:
I think nothing like H3.2 will certainly happen. For many people H3 reached its top and it's nearly impossible to make a better Heroes game for you/them. Ubi Heroes ARE different. I like it for example but I can understand many others do not.


IMO, if you lack the money and talent to create a better edition of someone else's game, it is best to stop trying instead of cynically chasing the paycheck lol

having the self-awareness to know when to call it quits and not endlessly flog the dead horse is an important life skill lol
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 29, 2016 06:26 PM
Edited by Stevie at 18:28, 29 Mar 2016.

Antalyan said:
this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.


Not exactly with you on the example, but there's an interesting thing to consider from what you said, and that's if the community should be listened to at all. I think that it should, but to a certain extent, not where it ever has a definitive say on game design or features. To me the idea of open-dev where the community votes and decides on game content is on one hand a declaration of defeat as a game designer from the developer, and on another a conflict of interests and unnecessary politics. If Heroes 7 is to be considered a failure, then it's not Ubilimbic's alone, but also the community's. There might be people who'd readily disagree with me, but let me ask you this - How come the quality of the Heroes games only decreased when the community involvement only increased ever since Heroes 5? If you contemplate on that a bit, maybe you'll find a revealing answer. You think it's only because Ubisoft turns a deaf ear to us? Remember the community at the time of NWC with Forge and think again. Sure, Ubisoft and Limbic are ultimately the ones accountable for Heroes 7's state, but don't think that the influence of the community had nothing to do with it. Otherwise the vicious cycle will continue and I surely don't want to see another community inspired "best of Heroes" frankenstein monster ever again.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 29, 2016 06:39 PM

Stevie said:
How come the quality of the Heroes games only decreased when the community involvement only increased ever since Heroes 5?

It did not increase. You just got to vote sylvan vs dwarves(100% decided), lineups(each of them lame one way or another) and sylvan town screen(who cares).
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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted March 29, 2016 06:49 PM

Antalyan said:
Also when many people here still prefer H3 & so on 2D graphics, this is a great example of why listening to the community here has not much high sense here.


With all due respect, but you are making no sense. There were many great suggestions by members of the community in this very thread alone, and they were all ignored. There was no listening to this community, or, to be precise, any community. Shadow Council, voting, discussions were all part of one big charade. Ubi wants to milk this franchise for quick cash without putting any effort in new games.

H5 was a good game with TotE expansion, and, in my oppinion, the great starting point for future games. Instead, they decided to copy WoW and dumb down the game, so they can get cash for almost no investment. And what is the end result of Ubi's plan for Heroes: two sh**** games that will soon be forgotten.

I just realized, that even if they perform a miracle with H8 (if there is going to be H8 at all) I would not buy the game at launch. I would buy it when it's price drops just to diminish Ubi's earnings. I think I'm allowed to do that, as they already got too much money from me via Heroes 6.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 29, 2016 06:55 PM

Doing a best-of was such a simple task it's infuriating how bad they messed up.

1. Take H3
2. Add popular features from H2 H4 and H5 that are missing from H3.
(Note that at this step you already have better than H3.)
3. Implement all fan-made improved user interfaces with their functionalities for greater comfort (splitting in ones or in half one clic, swap armies, upgrade all etc).
4.  Make it isometric so you have 3D models and strategical view + it runs faster.
5. Editor needs to be as powerful than user-friendly.

Do good coding and beautiful assets.

But no, again we get other exotic stuff such as spider buddhists posing as wannabe necromancers dancing around butterflies trying to pass as Dragons and other atrocities aand it's supposed to be such a hype with many gameplay elements coming from freaking H6 not even mentioning almost totally of its assets because there is no shame in doing that when being one of the market giants and after patch 1.7 game is still unplayable
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted March 29, 2016 07:27 PM

Stevie said:
Not exactly with you on the example, but there's an interesting thing to consider from what you said, and that's if the community should be listened to at all. I think that it should, but to a certain extent, not where it ever has a definitive say on game design or features. To me the idea of open-dev where the community votes and decides on game content is on one hand a declaration of defeat as a game designer from the developer, and on another a conflict of interests and unnecessary politics. If Heroes 7 is to be considered a failure, then it's not Ubilimbic's alone, but also the community's. There might be people who'd readily disagree with me, but let me ask you this - How come the quality of the Heroes games only decreased when the community involvement only increased ever since Heroes 5? If you contemplate on that a bit, maybe you'll find a revealing answer. You think it's only because Ubisoft turns a deaf ear to us? Remember the community at the time of NWC with Forge and think again. Sure, Ubisoft and Limbic are ultimately the ones accountable for Heroes 7's state, but don't think that the influence of the community had nothing to do with it. Otherwise the vicious cycle will continue and I surely don't want to see another community inspired "best of Heroes" frankenstein monster ever again.


apparent correlation does not imply actual causation, ask the various VIP fans how much say they had in the design,

the quality of the Heroes games decreased when Erwin and his associates took the lead, I mean I certainly agree it's ******** to come begging cap in hand to your fans for pointers, but from all reports they are not even doing that, they keep those people way out at arm's length and just tell them what they want to hear, and completely ignore everything they say until after it is too late,
the various fan involvement drives are just a fake ass sinecure attempt to have a hollow soundbite where they can say "we're listening to our fans" (and also a smokescreen for the fact that their team has no spiritual relation or continuity with the series like NWC did, they are just a random disposable team),

then on the other hand they bring the Donald Trump mobs down on themselves with their stupid (and inconsequential) design by committee votes to satify absolutely nobody, you cannot design a good game by public mob, let alone when throwing the public mob a damned if you do choice you yourself came up with between giant douche and turd sandwich lol

if they DID give the best fans a voice in a very common sense way, e.g. by bringing in to Jolly Joker and alcibiades, maurice, salamander, Elvin, or hiring Quantomas, or whoever, sure maybe they would all argue and squabble over rubbish and we would end up with be a piece of ****, who knows, but it is not currently the situation so why do we micharacterize it lol
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 29, 2016 07:49 PM

Antalyan said:
For many people H3 reached its top and it's nearly impossible to make a better Heroes game for you/them.


I would not say that, as I was one of the modders which made several (actually over 20 interface mods) mods to improve H3, I am no way near to say H3 is perfect, it has bugs, useless skills and spells and so on. But you won't invent a new car engine when all your life you studied cooking.

By that I mean it is obvious from H7 designs, accessibility and interface jumble that these people never studied and understood previous games success.

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vitirr
vitirr


Adventuring Hero
posted March 29, 2016 07:55 PM

I agree with those saying that 3D or not is not the issue, but how you use 3D. Just look at Trine graphics and check how incredible 3D graphics can be while being displayed in a static camera. But of course for that you need an great artistic driving force which seems to be lacking in the Ubi/Limbic teams. In any case, there are plenty of games using 3D in strategy games without overcomplicating the visualization, so it is perfectly doable. That and the fact that 2D engines and artists will probably be scarce, makes the choice clear.
Interface and portraits should be 2D though.

frostymuaddib said:

As for 2D vs 3D and editors, I prefer 2D game. But, H4 did good thing  IMO with 3D. and with map editor, which was really good, at least from my point of view. So if we really need 3D, and I really think that we don't, maybe H4 style could be a solution (I'm not talking about art style, just implementation of 3D).

As far as I know H4 is still a pretty much 2D game. I know that 3D objects were used and probably converted to sprites (don't know to what extent) but that doesn't make it more 3D. Actually same was true for some objects in H3 as well if I'm not mistaken.

And actually that would be a pretty bad choice of doing things in my opinion. It's probably much economical to just make it all 3D and display it from a static camera as if it was 2D (options to rotate and such are always nice though, even if they shouldn't be necessary). It is just a question of choosing an appropriate quality for the necessary level of detail and a good artistic design.
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Pim18
Pim18


Known Hero
posted March 29, 2016 08:41 PM

Giving my two cents regarding 3D.
What I liked about Heroes 5 was how free the camera controls were. You could zoom in very deep and had free rotation. This actually helped a bit with general overview of the map I think.

Heroes 6 and 7 had the camera being more restricted thus giving you less freedom to choose your viewpoint and making the poor map design more apparent.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted March 29, 2016 09:19 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 21:25, 29 Mar 2016.

Stevie said:
Not exactly with you on the example, but there's an interesting thing to consider from what you said, and that's if the community should be listened to at all. I think that it should, but to a certain extent, not where it ever has a definitive say on game design or features. To me the idea of open-dev where the community votes and decides on game content is on one hand a declaration of defeat as a game designer from the developer, and on another a conflict of interests and unnecessary politics. If Heroes 7 is to be considered a failure, then it's not Ubilimbic's alone, but also the community's. There might be people who'd readily disagree with me, but let me ask you this - How come the quality of the Heroes games only decreased when the community involvement only increased ever since Heroes 5? If you contemplate on that a bit, maybe you'll find a revealing answer. You think it's only because Ubisoft turns a deaf ear to us? Remember the community at the time of NWC with Forge and think again. Sure, Ubisoft and Limbic are ultimately the ones accountable for Heroes 7's state, but don't think that the influence of the community had nothing to do with it. Otherwise the vicious cycle will continue and I surely don't want to see another community inspired "best of Heroes" frankenstein monster ever again.
Keep in mind that what the community voted on was created by them. Aside from random skills, which was implemented like crap, the communities endless supply of suggestions was completely ignored. I agree with what verriker said, that if the fans had gotten more say it could have still been garbage; however, it is ultimately irrelevant as it cannot be proven. They made this game themselves no matter how much fan advertisement there was.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted March 29, 2016 09:34 PM

Antalyan said:
I think nothing like H3.2 will certainly happen. For many people H3 reached its top and it's nearly impossible to make a better Heroes game for you/them.

You've been around here long enough to know that it's not true - in some areas, H2, H4 and H5 are superior to H3, as it has been explained multiple times.

No, the reason why H3 is still praised and looked up to is because it's both a great game on its own and the example of a good sequel, gameplay wise. But it's not flawless.
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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted March 29, 2016 11:46 PM

Antalyan said:
Could you please move this discussion into another thread? I do not think this is connected to H7...



http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42337

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vitirr
vitirr


Adventuring Hero
posted March 29, 2016 11:57 PM
Edited by vitirr at 23:58, 29 Mar 2016.

Pim18 said:
Giving my two cents regarding 3D.
What I liked about Heroes 5 was how free the camera controls were. You could zoom in very deep and had free rotation. This actually helped a bit with general overview of the map I think.

While I agree that not providing full camera control in a 3D game is quite retarded, I don't have the same memories from H5. I remember myself fighting with the hidden game seetings in your profile file to allow the more top down camera seeting that I liked to play with.

Besides, in H5 you HAD to make extensive use of the camera because it was so easy to miss some resources or other objects hiddent behind others.

If something could be said from H6 is that their default camera and map design was pretty good making most things visible (and yes that's probably the only good thing to say about that game).
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