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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 21, 2016 11:19 PM |
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Quote:
I don't really mind this. If the assets look good and are up-to-date quality wise and fit the art-style of the game, what would be the point in using resources on making new assets?
Yeah. What the point of having the original ones. Let's enjoy reprints.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted April 21, 2016 11:23 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I don't really mind this. If the assets look good and are up-to-date quality wise and fit the art-style of the game, what would be the point in using resources on making new assets? Those resources could be spent better elsewhere, we all know there are many places that could use some more love as it is even with the re-used assets.
I actually think the re-used models from H6 is more of a problem. When going to a new chapter of the game, one would expect an upgrade on technical level. Of course we may have reached the age where graphic update is actually not that significant between game releases, meaning that re-using models is from same game is actually possible (unlike previously, where graphics would change radically in just a few years) - and if that is the case, that's something we'll have to adjust to as customers also.
Well, as a remainder, people spent 50€ on the game, which has a lot of things taken from Heroes VI (and Anno 1404 and who knows what other games). For such a price, one would expect something amazing. For that price, one could buy games that were released years ago and offer more worthwhile experience.
Just how much Anno 1404 costs, anyway? Just to compare it with H7.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted April 21, 2016 11:35 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 23:38, 21 Apr 2016.
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Just look at the price of the Witcher 3 and all its addons. Then compare its quality with H7. CDPR can sell their Blood and Wine for $100 if they wish to, and I will buy anyway. Just because I believe them.
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sobaka770
Hired Hero
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posted April 21, 2016 11:41 PM |
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alcibiades said:
airodinamic said:
LOL i just realize that the half of the assets that are not recycled from Heroes 6 are recycled from the Anno 1404. Man i was so disappointed by cheap development but this is even more sad to know...
http://www.mediafire.com/view/eckzxms9iksujme/heroesVIIscreen.jpg#
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Historic_warehouses_foundation
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Mosque
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_arena
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Keep
I don't really mind this. If the assets look good and are up-to-date quality wise and fit the art-style of the game, what would be the point in using resources on making new assets? Those resources could be spent better elsewhere, we all know there are many places that could use some more love as it is even with the re-used assets.
I actually think the re-used models from H6 is more of a problem. When going to a new chapter of the game, one would expect an upgrade on technical level. Of course we may have reached the age where graphic update is actually not that significant between game releases, meaning that re-using models is from same game is actually possible (unlike previously, where graphics would change radically in just a few years) - and if that is the case, that's something we'll have to adjust to as customers also.
But... they don't...
The graphics in HoMM7 are terrible, and not just the technical part. You can squeeze a good image with UE3, but because of the reused models there's basically no art design. And once again, art >>>> graphics tech in 90% of cases. HoMM7 game has very detailed, overly detailed models, textures, terrain, assets etc. etc. , but looks worse than H6 and H5 and as a coherent world, it looks worse than any Heroes game, maybe apart from the first. In HoMM7 everything is a mish-mash of models which don't fit into the universe and the whole picture is artistically bankrupt.
UBI_Oak likes HoMM2 town screens the most? Well I dare him to name one aspect of Heroes 7 which is better than its counterpart in Heroes 2. You remake Heroes 2 with UbiART engine and it will sell more copies easily (not for 60EUR, but let's face it HoMM7 with this amount of reused assets is a blatant rip-off at that price).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 21, 2016 11:42 PM |
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There are two different discussions at play here. 1) Is it ok to re-use assets? 2) Is the price-tag of 50$ for Heroes 7 reasonable?
I'm not saying these two questions are not connected, because arguably in order for 2) to be affirmative, one could argue 1) must be denied, but one can turn this around and say that 1) can be affirmative and then 2) be denied as well. I will even say that answer could be yes to both questions, had H7 been an amazing game otherwise - which it wasn't, but that's another story.
EDIT>
@sobaka770
Again, I was speaking on a principal level. From a principal point of view, I don't object to asset re-using, if the result looks great. Did the result look great in H7? No. Does that mean asset re-using will necessarily always be a bad idea? Also no.
I do agree art design in general for H7 was really bad. Was that caused by the asset re-using? No, I don't think so, I think that was caused by an overall lack of artistic vision, although admittedly I can't deny the possibility that having to contain certain re-used elements of course can have force the art-designers in a bad direction (so that comes down to the question of what came first, the art design or the decision to re-use specific assets, which we don't know).
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 21, 2016 11:49 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I don't really mind this. If the assets look good and are up-to-date quality wise and fit the art-style of the game, what would be the point in using resources on making new assets? Those resources could be spent better elsewhere, we all know there are many places that could use some more love as it is even with the re-used assets.
I actually think the re-used models from H6 is more of a problem. When going to a new chapter of the game, one would expect an upgrade on technical level. Of course we may have reached the age where graphic update is actually not that significant between game releases, meaning that re-using models is from same game is actually possible (unlike previously, where graphics would change radically in just a few years) - and if that is the case, that's something we'll have to adjust to as customers also.
for my share you're thinking too results-oriented mate, it's not about the outcome but the principle of the thing,
if company worth 3 billion euro is too cheap and lazy to commission new assets, respect the customer and come clean with full disclosure of any cheap ass recycling at the very least, so far they are doing whatever they can to hide or downplay it which is not acceptable IMO lol
new money new game, it's real wheeler dealer con artistry selling that for full price unless the player can recycle their dollar,
respect blossoms out of honesty and integrity, so if one will patronize people as haters, feel entitlement to good faith and expect pat on the back for making a "new" product then the place to begin is to not engage in bad faith shady deception lol
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 21, 2016 11:55 PM |
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I did not mind them using assets from H6. As matter of fact few did before Necropolis's crap reveal, and the true lazy attitude they were taking with their copying became evident. The asset reuse is fine if it stays within the series. It could be said to be expected, after all H1-3 all reused certain assets.
But really, reusing assets from a 7 year old game? That is what you find in mods not $60 games, or $40 games, or even $20 games. That reuse is just unacceptable.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 22, 2016 12:05 AM |
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verriker said:
for my share you're thinking too results-oriented mate...
Well you are right about that, for me, it's the results that count. I'd rather have a great game with re-used assets than a louse game with all-new assets.
Of course, what we got with H7 was a lousy game with re-used assets, but again, that's another discussion ...
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 22, 2016 12:36 AM |
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alcibiades said:
Well you are right about that, for me, it's the results that count. I'd rather have a great game with re-used assets than a louse game with all-new assets.
Of course, what we got with H7 was a lousy game with re-used assets, but again, that's another discussion ...
not everyone is politicised and in my opinion the results are the most important thing too, but still I will make some effort to be a conscious consumer, so a meaningful element is the level of respect and where my dollar is going,
for instance Doug TenNapel or Orson Scott Card could create the best pieces of art ever but I will still not give them my money because they are horrible homophobic bigots, or I will try to avoid buying anything from a sweatshop (50 Shades of Darkness for example) lol
developers who will set a great example and have respect for their customers deserve support and get a big thumbs up from me, like CD Project Red as mentioned or Blizzard in the past, while developers who demonstrate contempt for the audience can frankly suck my wotsits, I will not buy an Electronic Arts or Zynga product even if good because of their very poor attitude and anti-consumerism, I think that would be irresponsible lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 22, 2016 09:48 AM |
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alcibiades said:
verriker said:
for my share you're thinking too results-oriented mate...
Well you are right about that, for me, it's the results that count. I'd rather have a great game with re-used assets than a louse game with all-new assets.
Like H6? Hoho. A pity because the game looked beautiful if anything.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2016 10:37 AM |
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The prices are too high, imo. I didn't buy the Witcher 3 because of that, and I won't until is goes down to decent. I remember that games as civ2 costed 10 euros (60 francs) back in time, and now the cost is multiplied by 6? I understand that development is more expensive due to tools used, but on the other side, the omnipresent advertising campaigns help selling the game 1 hundred times more. The price for seeing a movie didn't increase since Casablanca.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2016 11:09 AM |
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Salamandre said:
The prices are too high, imo. I didn't buy the Witcher 3 because of that, and I won't until is goes down to decent. I remember that games as civ2 costed 10 euros (60 francs) back in time, and now the cost is multiplied by 6? I understand that development is more expensive due to tools used, but on the other side, the omnipresent advertising campaigns help selling the game 1 hundred times more. The price for seeing a movie didn't increase since Casablanca.
Recently bought The Witcher on GOG.com for 0.5$
As on GOG.com we have HMM1-5, I think one day there will be HMM6/HMM7 with big discounts
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airodinamic
Hired Hero
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posted April 22, 2016 11:23 AM |
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I dont think we will ever see Heroes 6 and Heroes 7 with all the DRM/Uplay crap integrated to the game. im sure the Heroes 7 will be easyer to remove the DRM stuffs due its unreal engine game but Heroes 6 is doomed never to be DRM free becouse all the Conflux, Dinasty stuffs not to mention how the new devs had a hard time coding and bug fixing the game.
Macron1 said:
Salamandre said:
The prices are too high, imo. I didn't buy the Witcher 3 because of that, and I won't until is goes down to decent. I remember that games as civ2 costed 10 euros (60 francs) back in time, and now the cost is multiplied by 6? I understand that development is more expensive due to tools used, but on the other side, the omnipresent advertising campaigns help selling the game 1 hundred times more. The price for seeing a movie didn't increase since Casablanca.
Recently bought The Witcher on GOG.com for 0.5$
As on GOG.com we have HMM1-5, I think one day there will be HMM6/HMM7 with big discounts
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 22, 2016 12:19 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The price for seeing a movie didn't increase since Casablanca.
You mean in the cinema? I don't know where you live but here where I live, those prices have gone up at least a factor of 4 in the past 3 decades.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2016 12:27 PM |
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2016 12:28 PM |
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France; is getting lower and lower, probably the only cost being lower despite the euro scam.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 22, 2016 12:34 PM |
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Games in Germany would cost up to 139,00 DM in the first half of the 90s, which is 70 € (and could buy a lot more than that today).
Also, take a look at console game prices.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted April 22, 2016 12:39 PM |
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In principle I don't mind re-using anything from previous games in the franchise, or even other games under your ownership. There is nothing morally wrong with it, and I would even encourage it. I say in principle, because in practice it doesn't always work out the way you'd like.
For instance, if they with H6 had developed a great AI I would strongly be in favor of re-using and expanding on that in H7. They could copy-paste the code line by line (if it was technically possible) for all I care. I see no reason why they should have to make a new AI from scratch if they already had something good, just because this is a new game. Or if there were well made scenario maps for single- or multiplayer, I would love to have them included in the new game. And personally I wouldn't mind if they re-used units, map objects, town screens etc. - with enough modifications to make it look sufficiently different.
There are two main reasons why re-use is a good thing. The first is: If doing it from scratch does not fix any issues or add any functions, I see no reason to do it. You are wasting time and money to get something equal to what you already have, or even worse. The second reason is just this: Time and money. When you make a game you are limited by a budget. So whatever you can re-use for free means extra time and money to spend on something you otherwise would not have been able to do. To put it bluntly; re-use 6 units and get a new faction "for free" (not exactly, but you probably get the point).
However re-use in Heroes 7 backfired, not because re-use is always wrong, but because they did it wrong. First, they didn't only use assets that were already good and improved upon them. They used assets that were disliked by large parts of the community and made some of them even worse. Granted, visuals is a subjective thing, but when you re-use something many people dislike, you will appear cheap and lazy instead of smart and decisive. Second, they had nothing extra to show for the time and money saved. On the contrary, much of the basics like cut scenes and UI was unfinished at release, in addition to several game-breaking bugs. Even though half the budget was spent on graphics, many people complain that it is worse than the aged Heroes 6. Instead of re-using assets to be able to give something extra, this gives the impression that they were too far behind schedule to finish anyway, and re-used what they could from the previous game(s) to give the impression that they did more than they actually did.
tl;dr
Re-use is not a bad thing in itself, it can even be argued to be a good thing. But it can be done poorly, and was so in Heroes 7.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 22, 2016 02:17 PM |
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verriker said:
if company worth 3 billion euro is too cheap and lazy to commission new assets, respect the customer and come clean with full disclosure of any cheap ass recycling at the very least, so far they are doing whatever they can to hide or downplay it which is not acceptable IMO lol
Pretty much this. I see no excuse for Ubisoft's behavior on the matter, they are too obsessed with saving two cents from a billion. Not even mentioning it was the anniversary and all, maybe an extra investment into graphical artists could have been possible, as well as taking what it takes to deliver a quality product on release, worth of both the IP and the pricetag.
Brukernavn said:
There are two main reasons why re-use is a good thing. The first is: If doing it from scratch does not fix any issues or add any functions, I see no reason to do it. You are wasting time and money to get something equal to what you already have, or even worse. The second reason is just this: Time and money. When you make a game you are limited by a budget. So whatever you can re-use for free means extra time and money to spend on something you otherwise would not have been able to do. To put it bluntly; re-use 6 units and get a new faction "for free" (not exactly, but you probably get the point).
I disagree completely, I believe working from scratch unleashes creativity and gives the opportunity to show a vision, it is not just about assets and what they cost materially, It is also about the soul of the game. Reusing and slightly modifying older material (units, townscreens, map objects etc) put creators into a different mindset. If I was to reuse my old musical compositions and slightly rearrange them in example, instead of creating a new, my personal and artistic investment sure wouldn't be the same. Or if I want to create a movie, should I think in terms of profit and loss or in terms of creation, of what I want to deliver and show to the world?
Then of course comes the talent into the equation, people like Tracy Iwata for example are missing from the brand now.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 22, 2016 02:48 PM |
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Reusing things from a failed game is a bad thing, your tears are more about this I think 
I would have nothing against reusing things from excellent game then devote all resources to improving what it didn't work and/or new concepts to diversify.
But also when they reuse creatures with 100% same look is a bit cheap, as reusing the bones and animations is understandable -they take the longest time to create, but adding new textures means only a few hours of work.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
