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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
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31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1635 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 ... 1382 1383 1384 1385 1386 ... 1400 1600 1635 · «PREV / NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2016 02:52 PM

H7 remodelling was most tastelessly done. Worse yet, I bet there are people thinking they did us a favour because we got 6 starter factions instead of 5.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted April 22, 2016 02:56 PM

Personally I wouldn't mind if the game got the Kings Bounty treatment of using the same engine and graphics time and time again if it meant a refinement of game mechanics and less bugs.
I could even get behind reusing H6 graphics if they toned down the spikes and the glow.

If Ubisoft decide that they want to get this game right and make 5 expansions to the game(milking it even further than previously thought possible) then that will be their first good decision in a looong time.
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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted April 22, 2016 02:57 PM

Elvin said:
H7 remodelling was most tastelessly done. Worse yet, I bet there are people thinking they did us a favour because we got 6 starter factions instead of 5.


Fixed it
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 22, 2016 02:59 PM

Salamandre said:
I would have nothing against reusing things from excellent game then devote all resources to improving what it didn't work and/or new concepts to diversify.

If you are referring to game mechanics I obviously agree, but reusing same art from previous game makes it look like an expansion or standalone rather than a new game, as in the next iteration, IMO.

Elvin said:
Worse yet, I bet there are people thinking they did us a favour because we got 6 starter factions instead of 5.

Haha sounds legit, Appreciate x2
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2016 03:56 PM

fuChris said:
Personally I wouldn't mind if the game got the Kings Bounty treatment of using the same engine and graphics time and time again if it meant a refinement of game mechanics and less bugs.
I could even get behind reusing H6 graphics if they toned down the spikes and the glow.

If Ubisoft decide that they want to get this game right and make 5 expansions to the game(milking it even further than previously thought possible) then that will be their first good decision in a looong time.

+1

There might be some complaints about lack of new visuals but that cannot compare to the current complaints about lack of gameplay variety, excitement or replayability. Those can be achieved without an exorbitant amount of resources, simply some good judgement and some imagination. I would certainly want more expansions with (tastefully)reused assets if that meant gameplay evolution and the eventual introduction of all factions. That would be the kind of game I could play for years. But maybe ubi doesn't want that?
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agneslynd
agneslynd


Hired Hero
posted April 22, 2016 04:20 PM

There were good things in H6... H7 took hardly any of them.
And UI is still unfinished.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 22, 2016 04:25 PM

Elvin said:
I would certainly want more expansions with (tastefully)reused assets if that meant gameplay evolution and the eventual introduction of all factions. That would be the kind of game I could play for years.

Bolded relevant part, but imagine glorious gameplay with all new art: MIND BLOWN.
And Ubi would get praised for setting the franchise back on track.
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airodinamic
airodinamic


Hired Hero
posted April 22, 2016 04:32 PM

The funny thing is Heroes 5 had 6 factions on the start without using old models and stuffs so that's not even excuse for them to have 5 factions as in Heroes 6 or 6 factions in Heroes 7 with a ton of recycled models from Heroes 6, Anno and maybe from even more game... thats just lazy excuse. if the game was a console game it would take so much more attention xD Im not even sure how did they never try to make a M&M: Heroes game for a console. just look at Sims that was a pc game got a console versions as well xD

Elvin said:
H7 remodelling was most tastelessly done. Worse yet, I bet there are people thinking they did us a favour because we got 6 starter factions instead of 5.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
posted April 22, 2016 04:45 PM

Elvin said:
Worse yet, I bet there are people thinking they did us a favour because we got 6 starter factions instead of 5.


Generally I am more happy to see 6 factions with some reused units than 5 or 4 factions with new units only.

But I would expect more from the game which costs so much.
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Aionb
Aionb


Known Hero
posted April 22, 2016 05:34 PM
Edited by Aionb at 17:45, 22 Apr 2016.

What would you have said if, 20 years ago, one of the 3DO employees would have told you to play user-made maps at your own risk, as there is no official support for them?

LOL: our bugware is only compatible with itself

That map-editor it's not made by Limbosoft, it must have been slipped into the purchase package by Vivendi, that's why.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2016 05:38 PM

LOL Ubi, the gift that keeps on giving ^^
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 22, 2016 06:18 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 18:35, 22 Apr 2016.

Brukernavn said:
Re-use is not a bad thing in itself, it can even be argued to be a good thing. But it can be done poorly, and was so in Heroes 7.

Exactly, Brukernavn, that was what I meant also.

Galaad said:
Pretty much this. I see no excuse for Ubisoft's behavior on the matter, they are too obsessed with saving two cents from a billion. Not even mentioning it was the anniversary and all, maybe an extra investment into graphical artists could have been possible, as well as taking what it takes to deliver a quality product on release, worth of both the IP and the pricetag.

Well, that's not really how it works when you run a huge company, is it? For UbiSoft, everything is business: Weighing investment against outcome to maximize their profit. They have no sentimentality for this particular franchise. They don't care if it's an anniversary or not, unless it gives them another opportunity to milk the cow.

Obviously UbiSoft has deemed the series a niche franchise, which means low investment at the acceptance of bad reviews and mediocre sells. That probably means medium profit at low risk. Could H7 had been great if more resources was put into it? Certainly. Could it have been a major seller? Possibly. But chances for that are probably quite low.

Can we regret UbiSoft's decision? Certainly. Can we blame them for making that decision? Not really, imo. They are running a cooporation, not a charity, and they do what they must do: Manage their resources in the way they think is best for their investors. I can't even disagree with their assessment of the situation: If I should make the decision purely from a business point of view, I'd also say low-investment-low-outcome would be the reasonable way to handle this franchise; high-investment would prove too much of a risk. I still regret it from a fan's point of view, however.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 22, 2016 06:38 PM

The approach is fine but the failings are not really a matter of budget. Not most of them anyway. With more money you can add more things and have a more stable release but it can still go to waste when you have poor judgement and sense of priorities. I mean the backbone of the game is the skill and spell system. How much more expensive would it be to add a few faction unique abilities and make an H5-like skillwheel? Or a properly random mage guild with more spell slots per tier? Or design proper hero specialties? A modder can do that in a matter of minutes.
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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted April 22, 2016 06:49 PM

Aionb said:
LOL: our bugware is only compatible with itself


Mapmaking: endangering players since MMH7.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted April 22, 2016 06:59 PM

looks like two different positions and possible talking past each other on the asset reuse, some people are putting their role as the consumer to one side and taking a devil's advocate position to discuss asset reuse in broad strokes and explain Ubisoft's actions,

but the rest of us are the consumer, we are speaking only about this specific case of asset reuse to begin with in its own egregious context, (for instance MMX Legacy is a different case), and I don't think we are asking anyone what the explanation is, the time for an official explanation was years ago so we are simply giving criticism of the discovery lol

also, they did not bother to disclose their unexpected reuse of visual assets to players, then gave various self-contradictory answers and evasive lies when called out, which is the disrespectful aspect lol

there are different kinds of asset recycling which can be justified or not, but in the same vein that there are bugs because there are bugs, as Limbic would put it, the asset reuse in Heroes 7 is bad because it is bad, or more specifically it's less like Star Trek Generations having the same starfleet uniforms and enterprise sets from Star Trek 6 and more like Star Trek Generations trying to pass off a reused explosion special effect from Star Trek 6 as a completely different ship exploding,

devil's in the details, if the recycling is more inappropriate and underhanded it is more liable to take you out of the world, if you are thinking about what's best for Ubisoft when you evaluate the game, good for you, but for many of us it's our task to focus on what's best for the consumer and how we feel, so I will give that shady practice of Ubilimb a red flag lol
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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted April 22, 2016 07:55 PM

The funny thing is that while the scale of this whole 'Heroes franchise' issue is of such importance to us, Ubi is probably taking it like a flies buzz, cause they have a lot bigger assets to take care of. Heroes games are like indie games go wrong for them probably... not worth their time in the end.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted April 22, 2016 07:56 PM

airodinamic said:
LOL i just realize that the half of the assets that are not recycled from Heroes 6 are recycled from the Anno 1404. Man i was so disappointed by cheap development but this is even more sad to know...  

http://www.mediafire.com/view/eckzxms9iksujme/heroesVIIscreen.jpg#

http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Historic_warehouses_foundation
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Mosque
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Tournament_arena
http://anno1404.wikia.com/wiki/Keep


*sigh*
I will post something, what I read back then in 2014. (see pages 4-7)
I don't think anyone of you heard about that before.

Yves Guillemot, Ubisoft CEO said:
Going forward we should reuse more things. Today, we will create a car in one studio, and we don't reuse that car in any other games. We need to make sure we can reuse items that people won't care about. That is one direction we can take to optimise the investment.


As we saw that in Heroes Online, Heroes 7 but also in Far Cry Primal, Ubisoft is going CEO's ways.

If you work in Ubisoft, you can think about this whatever you like, but if your boss have another "brilliant" idea, you can only try to persuade him to abandon that and if this will fail, you have to make what he want.
Same was with "always online" idea - why do you think Heroes 6 got Conflux and Assassin's Creed 2 also needed to be always online? Because developers thought it was great idea? Or because they needed to fallow goals from their bosses?
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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 22, 2016 08:00 PM
Edited by TD at 20:03, 22 Apr 2016.

Units generally look worse than h6(to me at least). Some units like Minotaur basically got no change and their effects like smashing down the axe used to have impact instead of a small thud that makes the re-use even worse. They pretty much just added spikes and other crap that didn't serve any purpose, just made the units look cluttered and more "unrealistic" to me.

Another downer with re-using the stuff is that I don't feel like game got anything in exchange for that. Units look worse, mechanics didn't improve, the game in general doesn't feel nor look like anything new or exciting. H7 just didn't feel like it did anything better than previous games. It didn't feel like a new game either, just re-hashed h6. I don't feel any reason to play the game. I'd have rather had big h6 expansion even though I dislike the game if the rehashed h7 was the alternative. If they had just changed the skill-system alone h6 would've been so much better game overall and removed the conflux. I mean it had plenty of things it did wrong that could be fixed, but to me those two pretty much killed the game alone.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted April 22, 2016 09:00 PM

verriker said:
there are different kinds of asset recycling which can be justified or not, but in the same vein that there are bugs because there are bugs, as Limbic would put it, the asset reuse in Heroes 7 is bad because it is bad, or more specifically it's less like Star Trek Generations having the same starfleet uniforms and enterprise sets from Star Trek 6 and more like Star Trek Generations trying to pass off a reused explosion special effect from Star Trek 6 as a completely different ship exploding,

I agree.

Elvin said:
With more money you can add more things and have a more stable release but it can still go to waste when you have poor judgement and sense of priorities.

They spent half the budget on graphics and have little to show for it. I don't think a much larger budget would have resulted in very different gameplay. Perhaps the game would have been released with less bugs and more content, but more money would not have changed the general direction or design.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted April 22, 2016 09:21 PM

There is also the possibility that Limbic are simply not good enough. Let us not forget that they were still looking to hire an Unreal engine specialist 3 months after the release of the game. We also know that they don't have a dedicated AI programmer not to mention a graphics team since everything has been outsourced or copied from elsewhere.
Now, all of these are glaring issues but more/better spent money could have solved these issues. There is no lack of experienced personnel out there, they just have to be hired BEFORE you relaese a game and not after.
Long story short. It's still all Erwans fault.
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