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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 11:07 AM |
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I'm kind of siding with Jeremiah in this one, but not so much based on the question of physical strength (and yes, the average male IS stronger than the average female, but given how it's not necessarily the average male or female you put into your army, there's nothing wrong with a female fighting force from a principal point of view).
No, I have two main gripes with this idea that we suddenly need to have a female swordsma... eh, sword-unit. First point is that Haven, for me, mimics medieval European feudal society, and in medieval Europe, we didn't have a lot of female warriors. For this reason, it breaks immersion. I'm not against female warrior individuals - in the form of female knight heroes - but in the main fighting force (which is what the units represent) I would rather see men. Furthermore, forcing these female units into Haven removes the possibility of having female units stand out in other factions - for instance, in H5 Dungeon had a huge point about being a maternal society with lots of female units, which gave this faction a special twist. Now it's just "meh, another female unit".
Secondly, if this is going to represent some sort of feministic "genders are even" acknowledgement, they are doing a really crap job at it. Why? Because we now have two sword-units in Haven, one which is female (Justicar etc.) and one which is male (Swordbearer). And where are these placed? Female is elite, but male is champion. Duh! So apart from me hating the fact that we now have two melee sword-units in the same faction, they are also shooting themselves in the foot, because if they wanted to make some sort of feministic statement to draw in female players, this can be interpreted in the directly opposite direction, and if that was not the motivation for a female sword-unit, then why the hell did we need two sword-units in the same faction in the first place?
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What will happen now?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted September 28, 2014 11:10 AM |
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Kimarous said:
So... what do you guys expect in the coming days? I think we'll probably finish up the Haven unit previews tomorrow, and the results for Sylvan come in the next day, so the new vote will likely kick in as well. I hope we get similar previews for the Academy in-between the updates for the final faction vote.
Getting the Champion Haven units on a monday? I'm sceptical about that. I think the first news of the week will be the results on Tuesday.
Then, maybes even on the same Tuesday, we'll get the next vote. Champions, I expect, are gonna fluf out the end of the week.
Academy will come next week, I expect, alongside more general fluf.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:15 AM |
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alcibiades said:
So apart from me hating the fact that we now have two melee sword-units in the same faction, they are also shooting themselves in the foot, because if they wanted to make some sort of feministic statement to draw in female players, this can be interpreted in the directly opposite direction, and if that was not the motivation for a female sword-unit, then why the hell did we need two sword-units in the same faction in the first place?
I myself consider this to be a mistake. The only thing I hope for now is that the Justicar will have an entirely different role than that of damage dealer.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:22 AM |
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i think we are reading too much into this.
a female warrior is ok, in most fantasy games there is gender equality. The fact that she is not a champion unit does not mean that they disregarded her for a champion status because of her gender. fate weaver was a lady and a champion. it's what fits best in every faction.
lets all just calm down, some of us are still in shock.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted September 28, 2014 11:23 AM |
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My 2 cents.
Justicars in DoC are magic shooters despite wielding swords (they have a high counterattack). So stop judging this unit until you get full description.
And you have only 1 female unit in Haven. Stop complaining. Complain about female gargoyles.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 11:26 AM |
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God I can't belive this topic is gaining traction here. This a fantasy world people! Get over your self. It is embarassing reading this stuff.
If You people thisk this is worth discussing then OK here is a topic for you...
Mountain lions are clearly better at armwrestling and fencing then wolves so wolves shouldn't be in the game.(source:Link)
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:26 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Complain about female gargoyles.
now that's smth to complain about! hw could they do this to the gargoyles?????? it's not a gargoyle anymore. the boobies are ok but that serene face makes it look like a flying golem. that's not a gargoyle!!
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:28 AM |
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I am all for Werewolves in Ashan as I really like them, but they don't belong to Haven at all.
We were already talking about this topic, Stevie was the one to suggest it first(I think) but Werewolves are beasts that cannot be tamed, they are also eating humans and are look upon as something cursed and unholy.
And they can't possible be in the same lineup as Angels and Chaplains.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:32 AM |
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From Justicar to gargoyles to werewolves. Conversation's escalating fast.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:35 AM |
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Edited by jhb at 11:35, 28 Sep 2014.
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fuChris said:
God I can't belive this topic is gaining traction here. This a fantasy world people! Get over your self. It is embarassing reading this stuff.
If You people thisk this is worth discussing then OK here is a topic for you...
Mountain lions are clearly better at armwrestling and fencing then wolves so wolves shouldn't be in the game.(source:Link)
LOL! 
When people start to ask for more mythology in the game, we already know what we should say: don't believe in this kind of media.
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:37 AM |
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Justicars being females don't really bother me, but I can see what Jeremiah is talking about. Females make for poor soldiers compared to men, no matter how good they are.
I think Justicars should have been made a stealth unit, since subtlely and subterfuge suits women.
With that said, I wonder why we never had a stealth unit in Haven.
We have meelee humans, ranged humans, spellcaster humans and so on, but no stealth.
It's not like only Dungeon can wield assassins 
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What makes a King? Some say it is a birthright, while others call it a destiny.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:47 AM |
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Stormcaller said:
Justicars being females don't really bother me, but I can see what Jeremiah is talking about. Females make for poor soldiers compared to men, no matter how good they are.
that doesn't mean they shouldn't be soldiers.
african men are more well-built than caucasian men but caucasian men swarm the military. get over yourselves this is the poorest excuse ever!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 11:52 AM |
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fuChris said:
God I can't belive this topic is gaining traction here. This a fantasy world people! Get over your self. It is embarassing reading this stuff.
I think there's an important distinction between the fact that you can do anything in fantasy and whether you should do anything in fantasy. It is true that there are different "rules" in fantasy, but I think a good fantasy world still has an anchor in real world, and imo. Haven is the anchor that ties Heroes world to real world. I'm not saying that the Justicar will be the be-all and end-all of Haven, but I do think these things are actually relevant subjects for discussion.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 11:57 AM |
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alcibiades said:
I think there's an important distinction between the fact that you can do anything in fantasy and whether you should do anything in fantasy. It is true that there are different "rules" in fantasy, but I think a good fantasy world still has an anchor in real world, and imo. Haven is the anchor that ties Heroes world to real world. I'm not saying that the Justicar will be the be-all and end-all of Haven, but I do think these things are actually relevant subjects for discussion.
Good point. I don't know if it was just me, but when I saw the haven arts, it resembled with some traces of nordic mythology. In norse folklore, it's more common to hear about female warriors.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 12:06 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 12:14, 28 Sep 2014.
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jeremiahemo said:
Strongest woman in the world gets easily destroyed by two average males smaller than her in arm wrestling.
facts:
luckily, justicar dont wrestle with creatures in ashan. they have a sword and probably divine powers 
in war, inspiration is an important thing too. you cant just measure everything with muscle strenght. thats why good leaders win battles despite of their small army/weak equipments.
justicars are irina's legacy, they have a big inspiration.
personal opinion:
btw in real world, i dont think females had the chance to show themselves enough like men, they are just now gaining it.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted September 28, 2014 12:07 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
now that's smth to complain about! hw could they do this to the gargoyles?????? it's not a gargoyle anymore. the boobies are ok but that serene face makes it look like a flying golem. that's not a gargoyle!!
They remind me of Star Wars female golden droids. I understand that some imaginative wizard wanted more girls around, but... limit them to that wizard, don't make that design in-game!
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 28, 2014 12:18 PM |
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alcibiades said:
fuChris said:
God I can't belive this topic is gaining traction here. This a fantasy world people! Get over your self. It is embarassing reading this stuff.
I think there's an important distinction between the fact that you can do anything in fantasy and whether you should do anything in fantasy. It is true that there are different "rules" in fantasy, but I think a good fantasy world still has an anchor in real world, and imo. Haven is the anchor that ties Heroes world to real world. I'm not saying that the Justicar will be the be-all and end-all of Haven, but I do think these things are actually relevant subjects for discussion.
Yes a good fantay world does have its roots in the real world but this is 1 measily female unit! Heaven is a castle of humans and quess what, 51% of all people are women. By that logic this is simply the best use of human resources. It is even more reasonable since evey couple of years the male population goes out to war and decimates their numbers thus the need to recruit all capable warriors. This point is further strengend by the fact that they are elite, meaning they are the most capable of the all the women in the population. Its not like this didn't happen in real life.
If somehow they had female units with udders then I would see the point of this discussion. Othetwise, this discussion is at best silly or at worst mentally crippling.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted September 28, 2014 12:49 PM |
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Think it's fine that the Justicar is a female. Seems like a healing unit with the ability to defend herself when needed. I see no problem with that.
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted September 28, 2014 01:15 PM |
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My take on all this? I don't really care whether a unit is male of female as long as they have an interesting design, so far I really like the Justicars' design, so I think I'll like the unit as well. As for her fighting style, we don't know for sure what role she will be taking on the battlefield, but if she is indeed a mêlée sword fighter I highly doubt her fighting style will be based on brute force.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 28, 2014 02:21 PM |
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fuChris said:
Yes a good fantay world does have its roots in the real world but this is 1 measily female unit! Heaven is a castle of humans and quess what, 51% of all people are women. By that logic this is simply the best use of human resources. It is even more reasonable since evey couple of years the male population goes out to war and decimates their numbers thus the need to recruit all capable warriors. This point is further strengend by the fact that they are elite, meaning they are the most capable of the all the women in the population. Its not like this didn't happen in real life.
If somehow they had female units with udders then I would see the point of this discussion. Othetwise, this discussion is at best silly or at worst mentally crippling.
I agree, it IS only 1 unit, and like I said, it's not the be-all and end-all of Haven, but still, we all know how important the units are in the line-ups, just look at the Sylvan thread that's gone on for what, 70+ pages, basically discussing whether the Phoenix, Unicorn or whatever is the most important unit for Sylvan.
My gripes with the Justicar is not the sole fact that she's female, that is just one of many things I dislike by the unit. To try to summarize the reasons I dislike it:
1) We already have 5 human units, do we need yet another?
2a) We already have a human unit armed with a sword (and another melee human unit in the core), do we need yet another?
2b) If she's actually a shooter, what will that make of the priest, will he become a melee unit instead (effectively duplicating 2a) or will he become a support unit without ranged attack (eliminating the tactical element of how to apply priest and thus making game less interesting)?
3) I think there's plenty of room to depict "capable women" in form of female units heroes.
4) In-game references to a game I found horrible is not enough to justify its presence for me (couldn't care less about legacy of Irina-whoever-that-is).
5) This unit has no historical or mythological roots and therefore fails to catch my interest and I fail to see why it needs to be introduced, cf. points 1-2.
So I can live with this unit, but I find it uninteresting from what I know now, I dislike the role that it will apparently fill in the game and I think the faction needed more non-human units so I don't understand that they didn't use the opportunity to use the slot for that instead.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
