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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 09:55 PM |
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I know, they want lightning bolts and constructs instead - or golems. 
But the difference is an illusion - that's why the Forge was such a good idea. Especially considering that the robots and the lasers were bound to lose. 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 10:36 PM |
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Nah man, just nah. The difference is in perception, and reality is perception. When I see an advanced looking weapon shooting a laser I assume a technological process allowing it to do that. When I see a blue orb on a wooden staff shooting light I dub it magic. It's a world of difference, and the fact that Forge didn't happen stands testament to that.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 23, 2016 10:52 PM |
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There was an inquisition as well. Just because there are some blind people not everything is black.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 23, 2016 11:22 PM |
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Any technology, when sufficiently advanced in the eyes of the beholder, is indistinguishable from magic.
That being said, I do understand the differentiation Stevie attempts to make and I agree with that.
The funny thing is - and I think it has been mentioned before, maybe even in this very topic? - that the Star Wars saga is also more fantasy than science fiction.
I think the biggest reason people resent the mixture of science fiction with fantasy is that science fiction implies a deep understanding of physical laws - and ways to manipulate them - whereas fantasy is usually considered medieval in nature, with magic thrown in the mix to spice it up, as some form of energy that can be mentally manipulated without deeper understanding of stuff like the theories of relativity or quantum mechanics.
Intuitively, a society with an understanding of the laws of physics, relativity and quantum mechanics is vastly superior to a society that mostly uses medieval concepts and technologies, even if that society dabbles in magic and perhaps steampunk stuff. For comparison, a small military division with the latest goodies our societies have to offer in our current day and age would be far more powerful than the largest armies of medieval times, along with all siege weapons they knew about then.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted June 23, 2016 11:53 PM |
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Maurice said:
The funny thing is - and I think it has been mentioned before, maybe even in this very topic? - that the Star Wars saga is also more fantasy than science fiction.
Indeed you did, a looooong time ago
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted June 24, 2016 12:11 AM |
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Stevie said:
I think this off-topic has persisted for far too long. People come here to read Heroes 7, not theses on Star Wars and fantasy/sci-fi.
hahaha lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 24, 2016 12:30 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Maurice said:
The funny thing is - and I think it has been mentioned before, maybe even in this very topic? - that the Star Wars saga is also more fantasy than science fiction.
Indeed you did, a looooong time ago
But it was in a galaxy very much being our own .
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted June 24, 2016 01:09 AM |
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"I think the biggest reason people resent the mixture of science fiction with fantasy is that science fiction implies a deep understanding of physical laws"
Actually, sci-fi implies nothing of the sort, given the fiction suffix.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 05:17 AM |
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Personally i dont mind at all the sci fi elements of the OldVerse. The problems when they wanted to make them notorious in the Heroes games were:
1-The Forge thematically and visually clashed with the rest of the game. While logically this obviously is understandable, its also understandable that people who liked H3 for practically being a pure fantasy game would dislike suddenly having robozombies with machine guns. Sacred just like the OldVerse is a sci-fi universe and at this point so is Warcraft but they got the fanbase to adapt by going slowly and with ambiguous visuals at first.
2-They never really arsed to properly set up the sci-fi part in Heroes franchise. Basically what i said above. If you played the RPGs you'd know it but if you didnt, your response would probably be "wat". Endless Legend is set too in a sci fi universe but one of the factions plot is all about setting up the "lost space colonists" thing.
3-The majority of this franchise online fanbase sucks for the most part. Because honestly, if you whine so much about H6 lich not being literally what you wanted, or them DARING to add something new instead of a manticore to dungeon, I cannot imagine the major femaledogfit people must have thrown back then at the robo guys.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 09:20 AM |
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@ Maurice
You should think about that again: What is the difference between a Laser Gun and a blue orb on a wooden staff shooting light? Answer: the way they are generated. The FICTIOUS guys who use the laser gun are ASSUMED to have further researched the laws of nature, found a way to bundle the light and construct a weapon: advanced technology.
And the light-shooting orb? Here a person with "mental abilities" can tap into the pliable energy of some universal ether and use for their own purposes, depending on whether said person has mastered the techniques (spells). The orb is just a focus for the mind of the wizard (the difference being that a weapon can be used by everyone, but the orb-staff is useless for most, because it's the mind who does the work).
You see that? "Magic" is just a name for the assumption of an underlying reality that the MIND can tap into which is not incompatible with technology AT ALL.
When you look at the FOCUS of the story, though, then "mental abilities" are something quite individual, which means a setting in an hi-tech industrial world makes no sense. You CAN, however, effortlessly, let the Enterprise detect and explore a pre-industrial planet - then some wizard casts Forgetfulness on them, and a year later Spock is the the Adam of the new Elven race on that planet.
People say, tanks vs. knives is ridiculous, but it's not tanks vs. knives, it's tech vs. magic and magic is obviously superior. Just cast Rot on all equipment, and that's it.
So in reality, magic assumes a reality behind the obvious that allows to manipulate the obvious, and with the forces of the mind, while technology is manipulation of the obvious by learning the rules by which it works. BOTH is totally fictitious, though: the Enterprise is as "magical" an object as the blue-orb-staff.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 10:19 AM |
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Since this is the random thread now, quick question: does TotE's improvements apply to the vanilla campaigns? It's been years since i touched those and i don't remember. It's on sale on steam and since i never owned a legal copy now is my chance. But i'm kinda stingy to buy both the vanilla and the standalone. If the improvements apply to the vanilla then I'll just have to buy them both:/
Btw it' 5-6 € each.
As for the H7 is't at 16€,if any HC police officer feels rich enough and wants to have even better counter-arguments, now is his chance too
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted June 24, 2016 10:27 AM |
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TotE doesn't come with Vanilla and HoF campaigns. However, there is a mod that allows you to play them with TotE. Also, with MMH5.5 you can play all of the campaigns with new features of this mod, however, there are some scripting limitations that prevent campaigns to work perfectly.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 10:58 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 10:59, 24 Jun 2016.
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Thnx for that,but i phrased it wrong. If i get both vanilla and standalone,will the changes of the standalone apply to the vanilla campaigns?/alt upgrades and such?
5.5 is a given that s the first thing i m gonna do. I tried it long ago amd i was pleased.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 24, 2016 01:24 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:16, 24 Jun 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
3-The majority of this franchise online fanbase sucks for the most part. Because honestly, if you whine so much about H6 lich not being literally what you wanted, or them DARING to add something new instead of a manticore to dungeon, I cannot imagine the major femaledogfit people must have thrown back then at the robo guys.
There's a fundamental difference though: Ashan Necropolis and Dungeon, even Sylvan, are being so criticized because of legacy issues in regard to NWC games, is not because new is because considered disrespectful, while Forge on the contrary was an attempt to unite MM RPGs with Heroes more clearly than few hints. I also heard rumors NWC team was not fully on board with the known Forge concepts, could have been made different.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 02:15 PM |
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Galaad said:
There's a fundamental difference though: Ashan Necropolis and Dungeon, even Sylvan, are being so criticized because of legacy issues in regard to NWC games, is not because new is because considered disrespectful.
"disrespectful" is an extremely heavy word for a crossover to another universe. It's like calling disrespectful the fact that aeons in final fantasy xiii were part mechanical. did not like it in the first place but it would be over the top to call that disrespectful.
you are clearly overreacting on that one.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2016 03:41 PM |
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Galaad said:
There's a fundamental difference though: Ashan Necropolis and Dungeon, even Sylvan, are being so criticized because of legacy issues in regard to NWC games, is not because new is because considered disrespectful, while Forge on the contrary was an attempt to unite MM RPGs with Heroes more clearly than few hints. I also heard rumors NWC team was not fully on board with the known Forge concepts, could have been made different.
How is it disrespectful? Ashan was a reboot, they were entitled to explore new things (and you are ofc entitled to dislike them) but i dont see how are are they disrespectful.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted June 24, 2016 04:52 PM |
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Heroes IV is disrespectful in the same way, then.
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The_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 02:10 PM |
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I understand change and a need for fresh ideas on armies but that doesn't mean we need to take out iconic creatures. Having one per faction isn't a big deal, especially when creature pools are becoming a thing. A nature faction without the unicorn is absurd, it's stayed with that faction since heroes 1. Just like the Minotaur for dungeon and the Cyclopes for stronghold. But I guess they consider all of academy and necro and most of haven to be "iconic" because they see little to no change. That's where the frustration comes in, NWC games were open to change, but some things remained constant for fans. Ubi games decide to keep half the factions the way they are, and picks around some of the NWC ideas to make their "unique" factions....the result is ugly.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted June 25, 2016 04:13 PM |
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line up discussion is fine and all but its not really important at all. why? imho, if gameplay was really fun and innovative, noone would be talking line ups at all.. at least i know i wouldnt care it.
adventuring is boring due to same repeated actions. i do what i did before, even after 2 months. wheres the fun factor in that? exploring for +2 defence bonus isnt really interesting at all. personally i would be very much happy if i could encounter wierd, unexpected events. i like reading stuff and i like adapting to challenging situations whether its by picking a dialogue option in pop-ups, or winning unforseen battles. beating up enemy A.I/player is obviously main thing yes, but its not the reason to enjoy the game alone. its not enough to play the game till the end.
another idea is, making the world of allready explored, constantly change over time so it would stay fresh in every phase of the game. how? suggestion: change of seasons! terrain changes, creatures migrate. new events born.. add raiders, pillagers, bandits.. maybe even generate somethings linked to your gameplay decisions. you slayed a monster stack mercilessly? they may seek revenge and generate special events in future... i dont know just an idea.
making battles, is another big thing that needs innovation. battle sites are nearly non-different then each other making every battle nearly feel same... many of you stated this and i agree with this problem: creatures have few abilities and game has not enough ability diversity making battles even more and more boring. i can safely say that mmh6 creatures were a lot interesting compared to mmh7 creatures. anyway.. those 2 must change first... and i still can think new ideas that can be added. terrain modifier for battle, hills, pits and all kinds of things to effect creature movements and attack on battlefield. charging cavalry with a hill should be a bad idea, or moving archers to a hill top should be a smart decision... not only those, imagine an earth spell master shifting battle terrains for its need: raising hills and all those wierd stuff with magic.
taverns. imho it had great potential for innovations. in past, i really liked reading interesting random stuff on tavern menu, whether its about lore or acctual game(enemy info). why dont it expand from there acctually offer interesting things randomly? i mean its tavern, it should gather all kinds of random people and rumors in the land. maybe small extra games, minor/major quest offers, lore discussion for roleplaying..
i feel like i can go on forever. when i think about things like this, line up discussions doesnt feel any important at all.. i can be perfectly fine with almost anything as long as gameplay is super fun. arent we all agree on this?
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 25, 2016 04:30 PM |
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Fresh Ideas have around this web-site/Forums for a very long time.
But, for some irky set of dev. based reasons, these awesomely fresh ideas have been found, most of the time, in the nearest paper recycling basket.
What we, all, do need, is an improved idealistic version of Nival Interactive of an innovative bound development company that still see the original Heroes of Might & Magic series' bound editions(Heroes 1 to 3)as the base to implement those fresh ideas of ours.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
