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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 28, 2016 11:40 PM |
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First is nice and detailed. But it takes away all the view around, so you basically are a zoom slave.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 28, 2016 11:47 PM |
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Salamandre said:
First is nice and detailed. But it takes away all the view around, so you basically are a zoom slave.
Zooming in AoW3 works perfectly and smoothly. I hate zooming in general, but in AoW it felt natural.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 02:08 AM |
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I want Civ6 style for H8 if its ever made.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 08:10 AM |
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My pic is with hex grid, that's why I picked it, because it makes a big difference. The second pic shows the zooming limit. And no offense, Salamandre, but you talk about a game you don't but should know, because it's absolutely smooth in all things important to you.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 29, 2016 08:52 AM |
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I specified that both screens and game play videos don't motivate me enough to buy it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 09:19 AM |
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Your loss.
By the way, Disciples 2 Gold on sale at GoG for 1.49 $ today. Real bargain.
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vitirr
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 11:42 AM |
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The AOW3 display is quite good IMO. One thing that sticks out in comparison to the last Heroes games, is that the terrain is completely flat except for the mountains which are represented by single mountain objects.
This provides a more abstract (iconic?) view, as if you aren't looking at the real terrain but to a map. Heroes used to be like that until 3D came to our lives with H5, but especially after H6. In H6 we started to have really complicated terrain structures and different terrain levels in a map, which were nice to look at but of course complicated everything a lot in terms of what the camera could show in a single frame, scale started to become a complicated issue and map making crashed due to complexity. Note that the problem is not only with fan made maps, also the amount of official maps available in the games is lower just because of the complexity of the visual designs.
In H7 the trend follows, only if worse because everything looks a bit uglier in my opinion.
So we've lost a lot in terms of visualization and map availability, while we've gained nothing but supposedly some eye candy to help the marketing guys selling the games. Apparently (according to the low sales of H7) it wasn't a really smart move in the long term.
What AOW3 shows (if it wasn't clear already) is that 3D or not has nothing to do with it, it is just the design of the visual aspect that matters, and ultimately the goals that you want to achieve with it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 29, 2016 12:04 PM |
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I tend to disagree. When you design in 3D you focus on close view details, when you design in 2D and thus no zoom available you focus on both close and far view details. If close view details are smoothly designed, to allow rotations and different angles, they will look loose when you zoom back, that's so simple as that.
Now there are people who simply don't care about the differences and will keep switching between In and Off, in order to see what they need. However, and this is where I don't agree with Stevie, for people having played a lot in 2D -like me, is not a problem of adapting but a problem of start using unnecessary features which look to them not worth the struggle, while achieving same result, no less no more.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 12:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:32, 29 Aug 2016.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Heroes 3 has both 2D and 3D objects in a fixed isometric view. On what side of the fence does that leave you?
@Vitirr,
Sounds to me a lot like what I said in my own thread.
Stevie said:
21. Iconic representation of map objects is a necessity! This should be heavily emphasized given that there is this temptations with 3D to go full real-size on objects and landscapes. That's a major mistake. The right way to do things is to tailor every map object, excepting heroes, artifacts, resources and creatures, to one iconic scale like we've seen in Heroes 2 and 3. Even terrain features like mountains, lakes and trees must be objects separate from terraforming! In fact, terraforming is a feature that works terrible with games like Heroes where a tabletop world is the best approach and not RPG.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 29, 2016 12:33 PM |
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They used 3D Max to make creatures and objects but they didn't focus on anything else than the visible part. Technically and visually we can't compare creatures from H5 and more with H2-H3, even if tools were similar.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 12:41 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:42, 29 Aug 2016.
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But when you put it that way, wouldn't you agree that you don't have a problem with 3D per se, but rather with the way in which it's handled? Because you don't seem to take issue with the way 3D worked in Heroes 3.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 12:47 PM |
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Heroes 3 has 3d objects but is 2d, and 2d is isometric anyway, objects don't get smaller when you drive away from them, which is why perspective is counterproductive for a strategy game where you need clear and iconic representation. The liberty in AoW3 allows you angles that could be mistaken as isometric so we're aiming for it anyway. The whole issue really is visibility and optimization, versus 3d for the sake of 3d without any additional layers of strategy. I think 3d in AoW3 works though, but is definite no for h5-6-7.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 29, 2016 12:54 PM |
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Yeah, is not because you use 3D tools that creatures can be rotated, have 3D features and such. Video about H3 creatures, when worked for HD mod. It shows what is about.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 01:20 PM |
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It's not worth a discussion, because the difference is very simple to explain: when requirements of gameplay and visuals clash with each other you either make visual compromises in order to support the gameplay, or you make gameplay compromises to support the visuals. The latest Heroes incarnations do and did the latter, while AoW 3 did the former.
Keep in mind that you are not designing a game EXCLUSIVELY for the hardcore MP/fast play gamer - that wouldn't sell enough games. You must try to make the game appealing for the broadest possible audience, and for that some compromises are needed.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 29, 2016 01:24 PM |
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Compromises like Heroes and China 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 01:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that you are not designing a game EXCLUSIVELY for the hardcore MP/fast play gamer - that wouldn't sell enough games.
Lol man ANYONE prefers a fast and stable game where you can see what's going on, not only competitive.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 29, 2016 02:16 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that you are not designing a game EXCLUSIVELY for the hardcore MP/fast play gamer eeded.
I know very well that, but its you who constantly bug me about "what I am missing".
When I buy a game -if it hooks me from what I see, I mistreat it until it smokes or it dies in pain. Extreme rush, seek for higher scores, optimal walkthrough solutions, modding area, and so on. I am not the kind of playing 10 minutes then talk 5 hours about, when I play, I play. If I see the game opposes resistance to instant animations, reloads, has a hard time processing huge maps, crashes then has technical lethal flaws (take Civilization 5, for example you can't end turn until all order were given, or sometimes there is no order left as all promotions or policies were used, result = game is screwed, OVER, after hundreds of hours in), then I simply skip it, it has no interest, I know we won't be friends. The fact that it looks nice means nothing to me, when we talk about TBS genre.
So far, I observed that the "upgrade" to 3D also added a lot of annoyances and considerably slowed the gameplay, AOW included. And I fail to see what it adds, in terms of strategy or game depth. Is only visual, so optional. Game sells better because of it? I don't care about this aspect, but only if will fit to my style or not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 29, 2016 03:40 PM |
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Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that you are not designing a game EXCLUSIVELY for the hardcore MP/fast play gamer - that wouldn't sell enough games.
Lol man ANYONE prefers a fast and stable game where you can see what's going on, not only competitive.
Yeah, but ANYONE prefers a great-looking game as well.
@ Salamandre
Look, I know that meanwhile. The one thing I can say is that FOR ME AoW 3 is better than every other game. It has better combat than HoMM, better Emnpire building, the best RMG ever which is infinitely customizable, hero and creature XP, a not too involved research, settling, non-conquest Victory Conbditions, unlimited replay value, mod support so easy that even I can make a very big mod, developers that listen to the players and actually know what they are doing, TWO Mp modes, live MP with sim turns and PBEM (Play by EMail) both working like a charm, both with a league, the game is smooth and has no loading times to mention, you can play offline, you can even buy it via GoG (doesn't need Steam), and in case I missed something this is basically your perfect game.
If you don't like what you see, then it just might be that you watched crappy videos, because the ones I watched were extremely boring. They talk too much and play not enough.  Game has also been changed a lot, especially with the Eternal Lords expansion.
It's also STILL quite expensive, more than 2 years after vanilla, which should tell you something as well.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 29, 2016 04:38 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Yeah, but ANYONE prefers a great-looking game as well.
Ofc, so?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 29, 2016 05:49 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 17:51, 29 Aug 2016.
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http://gamerant.com/no-mans-sky-refund-542/
Not that I'm a fan of this practice, cause in theory a gamer could exploit every possible game out there ("finished it, but yeah it was a bad game..."), but shouldn't sth similiar have been be done about Heroes 7?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
