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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 12, 2016 08:19 AM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 08:37, 12 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
As I said times and times again, Ashan is not (or shouldn't be anyway) what makes the last games bad.
I very much think it is! And more broadly - lore. The Ashan aesthetic makes me cringe, the peddling of lore makes me cringe too.
Jon van Caneghem - the main designer of HOMM - has said in an interview Might&Magic was added to Heroes as an afterthought. When they made Heroes1, they had a hard time marketing it, and it wasn't very recognizable. They just made a fantasy strategy game. Everyone had great fun with Heroes1-3, and it wasn't until Armageddon's Blade that they started strenthtening the ties to Might&Magic.
Heroes 1, 2 campaigns were literally strings of scenarios. In Heroes1, 2 single scenario mode is called "standard game". Until Heroes3, there were no heroes carrying over from one scenario to another, absolutely no stats, and artifacts in very special cases.
That didn't stop HOMM1, HOMM2 from selling very well. OF COURSE Ashan is much mure fleshed out than Enroth and Axeoth. And that's part of the problem. Developers are confused about what people liked about HOMM in the first place - turn-based fantasy strategy game with colorful creatures.
Oh look my name is Hero X, they killed my father blah blah blah. Let's wrap the design of the game around some third rate story!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 08:34 AM |
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 12, 2016 08:49 AM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 08:51, 12 Sep 2016.
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[quote=verriker]
now as to why there was more synergy between the games and the music in the NWC era and Heroes 5, well that's up for debate, one could blame it on Rob and Paul being younger and less sick of this genre back then, maybe they had more time and money to work with back then, better rapport with JVC and Fabrice than with Erwin and his team, or whatever you fancy, I will not make a verdict myself lol
JvC has said in an interview he always played a lot of board games and pen&paper RPG games, starting with high school. Crag Hack was actually a pen&paper RPG character he played. The team for HOMM1 was around 10-15 people, a tight-knit group of friends. By the time of Heroes3 it was 50+ people.
He said he likes to iterate quickly and try different concepts and game mechanics, which is very hard in a huge 50+ person dev teams - and console dev teams tend to be even larger now. That's one of reason the creator of HOMM wants to just make mobile games in future. He can work with a small team again. To feel like he's working with friends who have similar passions, not coworkers.
So to wrap it up, I don't think they are sick of the genre. I don't recall ANY interview with Paul Romero where he mentioned he actually played any of HOMM games! More likely, they are sick of the AAA game industry.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 12, 2016 09:02 AM |
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Antalyan said:
because without any scripted events, it's very hard to build a good story
But there's a difference between providing grips here and there to advance the story, or to have the player on a rail through the story  .
Some of the stories in previous Heroes titles were pretty great, without telling the player what to do at just about every step of the way.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 12, 2016 09:51 AM |
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Maurice said:
Antalyan said:
because without any scripted events, it's very hard to build a good story
But there's a difference between providing grips here and there to advance the story, or to have the player on a rail through the story .
Some of the stories in previous Heroes titles were pretty great, without telling the player what to do at just about every step of the way.
As I said, it's about your personal preferencies. You know I like the way H7 stories are told.
b0rsuk said:
The team for HOMM1 was around 10-15 people, a tight-knit group of friends. By the time of Heroes3 it was 50+ people.
Then H7 is definitely return to the roots 
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 10:05 AM |
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Look, Antalyan, Heroes is supposed to be a STRATEGY game with RPG elements and tactical combat. A campaign that takes you by the hand and leads you through it isn't a STRATEGY game anymore, because you don't have to worry about strategy anymore - the game is doing that for you by taking you by the hand. Not even an adventure game does it in this way.
In it's most basic form, a strategy game needs you to develop a strategy to fulfill the victory condition (before anyone else). Let's say the VC for a map is: "Meet with King Tolgar." The loss condiction is: "Don't lose Ivan."
Now, do you really need more than that? You have a map you obviously need to explore, there will be danger, you may need to recruit additional troops somewhere. Finding a way to win is what makes this a strategy game in the first place.
There might be side quests. (Someone steps up, moans something and promises you X if you help him.) If you fulfill them, they may or may not help you to fulfill the VC easier, but it might also cost time.
That's it. If effects are waiting along the way - make it so you can enjoy them when you are there.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 10:57 AM |
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That way I wouldn't have to waste my time replaying missions because of a goddamn script not working  H3 had it so much easier, visit the seer hut, fulfil the quest requirements, get the reward. Never had to replay because a quest wouldn't work nor did I feel that the mission designer took me for a n00bling.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 11:04 AM |
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Antalyan said:
because without any scripted events, it's very hard to build a good story
Incorrect. Older heroes had time-triggered as well as location-triggered events. They were done much better than ubi's and I'm not just talking about quality of writing.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 11:25 AM |
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b0rsuk said:
I very much think it is! And more broadly - lore. The Ashan aesthetic makes me cringe, the peddling of lore makes me cringe too.
The visual style of H6, H7 and DoC is for me the (by far) most aesthetically pleasing one across the whole M&M game universe.
Here, have a flower, stop hate 
PS: I purposedly left Heroes Online out because, even though it copies the same style, the game itself is too much fail to even mention. The art style of the other Ubi games have a varying appeal to me: M&M X was ok-ish but not amazing, while Dark Messiah was actually quite good, even if different. H5's visual style on the other hand is a no-go (as is Clash of Heroes'), if I wanted to play WoW I would do so directly.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 12, 2016 12:54 PM |
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@Elvin, JJ
We have already had similar discussion dozens pages back, haven't we?
What I consider to be a good campaign is exactly what you dislike and vice versa. I think our preferences our so much different
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 01:09 PM |
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How would you know? Last I recall you didn't play the good ones
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 12, 2016 01:24 PM |
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Antalyan said:
@Elvin, JJ
We have already had similar discussion dozens pages back, haven't we?
What I consider to be a good campaign is exactly what you dislike and vice versa. I think our preferences our so much different
Ok, what's the STRATEGY part in the campaigns you like?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 12, 2016 02:04 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
Here, have a flower, stop hate
SoilBurn said:
LOL. Your hate has transcended to levels that defy human logic.
just a small observation, but I think you are tending to mistake rather mild critical opinions for pure hatred mate lol
bear in mind not all criticism is highly emotionally charged, saying something sucks and being able to explain why isn't really the same thing as burning and seething with actual, irrational hate, this would be like saying for instance if someone thinks the lore of Heroes 7 is good enough to elevate the game, that they must be head over heels delusional in love with the lore lol
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 12, 2016 02:19 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 14:20, 12 Sep 2016.
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verriker said:
SoilBurn said:
Here, have a flower, stop hate
SoilBurn said:
LOL. Your hate has transcended to levels that defy human logic.
just a small observation, but I think you are tending to mistake rather mild critical opinions for pure hatred mate lol
bear in mind not all criticism is highly emotionally charged, saying something sucks and being able to explain why isn't really the same thing as burning and seething with actual, irrational hate, this would be like saying for instance if someone thinks the lore of Heroes 7 is good enough to elevate the game, that they must be head over heels delusional in love with the lore lol
The point of using blanket labels like "hater" or "hate" is to shut down all criticism. That's much easier than adressing points and making arguments.
If Secret of the Monkey Island, Myst, Day of the Tencle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Sanitarium were released today, "New Game" would be called "Campaign" instead. We live in a strange world where you can call something "campaign" when it involves no actual strategy.
I'm going to read a book err I mean read a new campaign. I hear Lord of the Rings has a good campaign.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 03:09 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:10, 12 Sep 2016.
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Back in the day campaign missions were strategy-focused.. Not just everyone could start let's say Yog, Gem, Mutare or Adrienne's campaign and finish it like they would a casual map. There were plenty of missions that required actual skill and planning ahead. They required effort.
It should be noted that H5 had its share of hard missions but that was partly because they were badly designed and/or bugged. There was no gradual difficulty progression and some builds could make it a lot harder than it ought to be. But tote campaigns were brilliant! Actually challenging in all the right ways.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted September 12, 2016 03:17 PM |
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Edited by AnkVaati at 15:18, 12 Sep 2016.
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b0rsuk said:
The point of using blanket labels like "hater" or "hate" is to shut down all criticism. That's much easier than adressing points and making arguments.
Yeah. And it seriously inflates the word, which is better used for things like people calling others "aggravated pre-teens" and stuff like that.
I guess JVC has no interest of getting into a fight with Ubi, although I knew already from Gus Smedstad that he saw H4 as the big mistake of the series. Which is quite sad. Even though it had worse reviews than H3 and caused a decline in the community, all of that was still so much bigger back then compared to now. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chrysler and then to a pile of junk found at the car dump, noting how the Ferrari is better than the other two.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 12, 2016 03:23 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 15:27, 12 Sep 2016.
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verriker said:
just a small observation, but I think you are tending to mistake rather mild critical opinions for pure hatred mate lol
bear in mind not all criticism is highly emotionally charged, saying something sucks and being able to explain why isn't really the same thing as burning and seething with actual, irrational hate, this would be like saying for instance if someone thinks the lore of Heroes 7 is good enough to elevate the game, that they must be head over heels delusional in love with the lore lol
And I think that you just took two quotes of mine out of context and tried to come up with a conclusion based on a common word, also known as the association fallacy
The truth is that the two comments had nothing in common and were very specific to each respective context. Especially the second one was meant in a very general manner similar to "make love not war".
b0rsuk said:
If Secret of the Monkey Island, Myst, Day of the Tencle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Sanitarium were released today, "New Game" would be called "Campaign" instead. We live in a strange world where you can call something "campaign" when it involves no actual strategy.
I'm going to read a book err I mean read a new campaign. I hear Lord of the Rings has a good campaign.
Adventure games, turn-based strategy games and books, all thrown in one convenient bucket.
How about we keep those things separate because each has way more going for it than just the "story"? I also played most of the adventure games you mentioned and do not see how you can compare them to a Heroes campaign - or Lord of the Rings for that matter. If you want to compare something that makes sense, then do heroes campaigns vs. Disciples campaigns vs. AoW campaigns. Now that we can gladly discuss.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 12, 2016 03:37 PM |
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I thought the point was that ubi is following bad trends. And tbh they are.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 12, 2016 03:55 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
And I think that you just took two quotes of mine out of context and tried to come up with a conclusion based on a common word, also known as the association fallacy
The truth is that the two comments had nothing in common and were very specific to each respective context. Especially the second one was meant in a very general manner similar to "make love not war".
fair enough if you'd say so after the fact mate, however I'd point out the contextual commonality is that both posts read as if characterizing the other poster as someone who was engaging in hate, when they were not lol
like I said it's a bit of a trend and not an isolated example to comment this lightly, bear in mind your other recent post asking to rename this place the "Heroes 7 Hate Forum" or the other one condemning HC as the most hateful place against Heroes 7 on the Internet,
ofc I understand there may be a language barrier if English is not your native language, but I merely suggest that IMHO that word has too strong connotations for the tone of discourse going on here, I certainly see lots of apathy, criticism, disdain and mockery of that production but not much unbridled hate lol
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 12, 2016 04:28 PM |
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Elvin said:
How would you know? Last I recall you didn't play the good ones
Exactly the same like certain people here can "know" about H7
Assuming you mean the "good old ones", I heard a lot about them. Sure that's not the same as if I played them. And I can also recognise it from many other opinions here saying the things I like were simply not there.
JollyJoker said:
Antalyan said:
@Elvin, JJ
We have already had similar discussion dozens pages back, haven't we?
What I consider to be a good campaign is exactly what you dislike and vice versa. I think our preferences our so much different
Ok, what's the STRATEGY part in the campaigns you like?
Sure I like the things like the way how you can build your town, manage your kingdom, whole combat is the strategical part of the game...
But if your question is how different campaigns are in strategy, then I have to probably say that in no significant way. Strategic features are the same, no matter if you are playing campaign or skirmish. Again, I think we have already had this discussion many pages back but I like these RPG features in campaigns.
Something more about me and campaigns: I'm not sure if it makes any sense for you but I like when I can continue where I ended the previous day, then save and close the game, continue the next day and so on. I like when I do not have to decide what to play today, I just go and continue. But the game also must have some "aim", some reward as story revealing, even if it's the story I have already heard.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
