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Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 7 - Discussion thread ~ This MEGA THREAD is 1634 pages long: 1 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 ... 1579 1580 1581 1582 1583 ... 1600 1634 · «PREV / NEXT»
PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 07, 2016 10:06 PM

Exactly, as long as they are clear and easy to spot features, they might enrich the experience without slowing down the pace of the game, of course, making you think a little more sometimes than just doing the usual strategies.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2016 10:21 PM

No, it doesn't make sense. Let's take that "pay upkeep for a bonus" thing that Elvin threw in.

Remember H3's buildings that increased a stat for visting Heroes? They are that exactly, considering that all Heroes can profit and no creature can fight without hero (actively).
So why would you start paying a daily fee for this? It's like LEASING stuff.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 07, 2016 10:28 PM

Leasing a spot in Valhalla lol
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 07, 2016 10:52 PM

Ok, here's your upkeep solution. (Disclaimer: I just say this might work.)

You pay upkeep for used hero army slots. Creature tier might matter.

Admit it already, I*m good at this.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 07, 2016 11:29 PM

You might also do it otherwise, by having each building in your Town(s) cost money and/or other resources to maintain. A small trickle, perhaps, but in the long run, with more Towns you might run into problems keeping everything up and running. Initially, buildings become unusable until the shortage has been remedied. If a building is left unusable too long, it falls into disrepair and needs to be built again if you'd want to make use of it. The game defaults to disabling buildings from top tier downwards, but you as the player could disable buildings manually so you can enable others again. Of course, a disabled building with a passive bonus doesn't provide that bonus while it's disabled.

I realise this is a mechanic that punishes the player for advancing Towns, but to counter this you offer the player a means to manage it: simply increase your income by capturing more mines and other resource locations. I'm not sure it should be a mechanic that works on a daily basis, but rather on a weekly one, as long as the creatures are recruitable on a weekly basis too.

This does mean, however, that maps that are poor in resources will play differently than those that are rather rich. Also, capturing enemy resource nodes will even be meaningful throughout the game, even late game.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 08, 2016 12:21 AM

Just no.
Why's the train of thought going along the lines of "let's see how we can make upkeep work in Heroes" instead of "let's see how economy can be improved"? What's the more appropriate goal here?
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 08, 2016 08:03 AM

Every feature must have some kind of purpose and add something to the game. "Upkeep" in general as an economic feature is, no matter how you implement it, some kind of limiter that makes you pay for using something.

In a game that wants you to develop things and where your main task is to liberate the gold and resources necessary to build up towns and buy creatures, punishing those who do it best is simply counter-productive.

If you add the "supply" thing, however, while the consequences are still economic (you somehow have to supply your army with things that cost gold and resources), the focus shifts to the logistics part of keeping your armies supplied. And here the "hero army slot tax" I mentioned would come into play.

What I like about this is the fact that it is independent from army NUMBERS (that is, it follows stack logic of the game): ONE Black Dragon needs as much supply/upkeep as one thousand, provided they share the same army slot, but split them in half and you pay double. The interesting thing is, that like the morale penalties coming with losing a stack in H7, while you WANT to split stacks and make use of the 7 (or more or less) army slots a hero has, there comes a penalty for doing so.

As a feature, this wouldn't be downright silly. You might also work with the system. For example, installing Caravans or something might free a slot from upkeep; the Logistics skill might offer perks to do so as well. So this would be workable. Whether it would add something significant, though, that would have to be seen.    

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 08, 2016 09:40 AM

Expected result for slot upkeep: Combining armies at the end of the turn and splitting them again next day

Speaking of which I would like to see mid-battle stack splitting. It might of course have to delay the unit's turn and allow you to select the adjacent location of the second stack. Except the front of the original stack because that would be like getting +1 speed.

I am fond of the game working with stacks but I think we need more ways to complement such a gameplay. For instance, a sorcery perk that allows you to cast two minor spells in one turn, which is then upgraded into mass. We already have displacement spells, spells that jump from stack to stack, aoe creature attacks and free attacks towards nearby stacks. We could have redistribution of spells, though in a more accurate manner than steal enchantment Plenty of options.
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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 08, 2016 10:08 AM

Not liking the idea of upkeep TBH. It would be huge boost to magic heroes who rely less on actual army. The game is largely about creeping with minimum army even as is. For less skilled player that change would be very punishing and it would make games with different skill-levels next to impossible. For me the best part of the game is when your legions and hordes take the battlefield in the end against army of same caliber. Early and mid-game are just optimization to me so I can get that grand finale with my friends.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 08, 2016 03:05 PM

Elvin said:
Expected result for slot upkeep: Combining armies at the end of the turn and splitting them again next day

It would be an upkeep that would be paid at the start of each battle, of course (after the deployment).
Splitting and merging stacks in battle seems like an invitation to a whole new level of AI exploitment, by the way.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 08, 2016 03:09 PM

But that would make each battle cost. Would be painful in maps with numerous encounters.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 08, 2016 03:14 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 15:17, 08 Nov 2016.

Elvin said:

Speaking of which I would like to see mid-battle stack splitting.


Well, give Tactics some additional effect then? Perhaps your hero could have options around your swiftest troops (or those with high initiative) to make an evading or flanking move.

These two commands would show similar to those WAIT, MOVE, ATTACK, CAST SPELL. But only for skilled heroes in the Tactics branch and for suitable units, fast and nimble enough for it. You would have SPLIT AND EVADE, and SPLIT AND FLANK.

Of course, some balancing should exist to avoid abuse. Evading would not be flawless. Troops would still take damage, but the difference would be when, before splitting (then the strategy would have failed), or after splitting (it would be a success, and from there, something like a random % of damage missing would be applied on one of the stacks, because you don't want to take full damage on half of you stacks of course, but to evade some of the starting total damage you would have been inflicted).

The Split & Flank would make troops vulnerable to a possible counter action, depending on targeted troops and opposing hero's skill set, similar to when you try to move troops adjacent to enemy troops in AoW 3. They will attack you while you are moving about them. And that might happen nulling your splitting move, getting afflicted by their reaction first, and then performing a weaker, messier action (Failure). If splitting is a success, both sides would perform the action with bonus added to it, perhaps avoiding reaction altogether.

As for upkeep, I'd stick to the idea of symbolism of it (tied to a Caravan-Logistics skilling), that it would translate in the state to rest/tired of your troops and around their morale, not directly affecting resources or economy. It would be split in three situations:


1. Area under your control: you are supplied. You have bonus morale and your troops are rested to battle at any moment.


2. Neutral area (no man's land): supplies take a while to arrive, and your direct access to your nearest controlled area becomes important. You don't have bonus morale and your troops are tired at the end of your movement/turn (and if an enemy blocks your ways back to your area, it'll turn to Enemy Area setting instead after X days depending on Hero's skills etc.).


3. Enemy area: you are cut of your supplies. You have morale penalty (minimized by Hero's skills) and troops are rested only at the start of the movement/turn. After two weeks un-supplied, troops are always tired (some sort of troops do not get tired, like the undead).


I would evolve around the capacity of the hero to grant and show certainty of a successful campaign (boosting morale and keeping troops faithful in faraway lands), whilst not really involving economy directly.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 08, 2016 04:06 PM

Guys, seriously, this isn't a Wargame. Stop thinking in battle mechanics that apply for everyone (like Flanking); as H7 has shown, it's difficult enough to code a combat AI that can handle the Wait command.

Instead, think unit specials. A UNIT or two that can split and flank as an ability - fine. EVERYONE, though? Chaos.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 08, 2016 04:34 PM

We could also think about how units would feel when their feet started getting blisters due too much walking without returning to any garrison!
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 08, 2016 04:38 PM

I can't help but think this discussion should be held in the Altar. I mean, are we even discussing h7 anymore?
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 08, 2016 04:56 PM

And then, just like that, the magic is gone.
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lordgraa
lordgraa


Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
posted November 14, 2016 02:33 PM

PandaTar said:
And then, just like that, the magic is gone.


Not just magic but also the official MMH7 site

Nothing to see here...

Now they (Ubi) can pretend that there has never been such a thing like Might and Magic: Heroes VII
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World of Heroes (Czech fansite)
Wryn Pendragon: Umbramancer (H7 community project)

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 14, 2016 03:32 PM

Ehh, I can still see the H7 site?
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted November 14, 2016 03:42 PM

I think he wanted to point out that there's nothing else updated there since long.
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Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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lordgraa
lordgraa


Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
posted November 14, 2016 03:50 PM

PandaTar said:
I think he wanted to point out that there's nothing else updated there since long.


This + I see just white page with MMX logo favicon in the tab... did they block me?

BTW this site is also off and UbiMoshi said its just a minor error and they are not burning the bridges behind: Ubi Official MaM site

Or maybe the "hostile" takeover has already started
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